Ok fellow GM's, long time lurker, first time poster. I would like some feed back if you get a chance. I have been running a group for some time now, and we have each really enjoyed the game, and out respective positions in it. The group contains a Librarian, Apothecary, 2 Assaut Marines, and 3 Tactical marines. One of my Tactical marines has brought an inquiry to me, and I have been tossing around how I want to handle it. The Signature Wargear (Hero) Tallent allows one item, up to 70 points. He has asked if he could select Terminator Armor. Now, according to the description of Terminator Armor (core rulebook page 164 and table 5-13 on page 165) Terminator Armor has a REQ of 100, 60 being for the armor itself, and a minimum of 40 for the weaponization.

He presented a logical reasoning behind his request. He stated that the armor itself is 60 REQ. To put weapons on it, you spend further REQ points. The weapons themselves are not a permanent part of the armor, the same as a weapon is not a permanent part of Astartes Power Armor. Every mission would require a different load out. He is asking to be able to have the Terminator Armor alone, as signature wargear, and use his own REQ points to outfit it prior to each mission. He has also stated that he will not accept "group requisition" to outfit his armor, being solely responsible for it.

I am of mixed feelings about this. What are your thoughts on this? Please, if you are going to comment, I would appriciate hearing your reasoning behind it, as opposed to just "Sure let him do it" or "Oh hell no."

Thanks guys!

I should probably add that yes, hw has recieved the Crux Terminatus, and is of propper Reknown. Didn't need everyone comming at me like a crazed orc warband on crack.

You should take a wee looksee at the Errata v1.1.1 pdf on the support page for Deathwatch. It has a fair few changes and has alternate weapon stats for..well..ALL of them *facepalm*

BUT to get back to your question this is taken straight from the errata and answers your question in every way.

Question: Can a Battle-Brother take Terminator Armour with Signature Wargear (Hero)?

Answer: No. Terminator Armour’s total cost includes the integrated systems, totalling over one hundred Requisition, making it out of the range of Signature Wargear (Hero)’s seventy Requisition limit.

To me, that seems pretty airtight. Yes you can argue that Terminator armour actually costs 60 req and that you can use excess req blah blah blah (as your player did). However, I personally think this cheapens Terminator armour and makes it less special if you can guarantee it every mission.

Yes I'm well aware that Deathwing Adv Spec in FF has it as standard gear, but I have my own issues with the Deathwing Adv Spec so that it won't even feature in my games. If it did however, then Terminator armour as standard is acceptable because that IS their standard gear.

BUT NEVERMIND THAT. Getting off-topic again.

Hope I was helpful!

-Durandal

If you do decide to do this, I would suggest telling the player that if he cannot outfit the armour for that mission, he is back in normal power armour.

As another point, would it be possible to take a storm-bolter and a power fist as two other signature wargear talents to cover the "basic" terminator load-out?

I know that the errata says no to this, but think of it this way, a full-strength chapter has over 100 suits of terminator armour. How many suits of Artificer armour are wandering around the same chapter? A lot fewer I would imagine. And yet I can get artificer armour as wargear, but not terminator armour. Same logic applies to things like assault canons, iron halo's etc etc. Far fewer of them being fielded by a chapter than terminator armour.

I think I'd require a player to SWG the whole kit & caboodle, e.g. SWG(M) Powerfist + SWG Stormbolter and then SWG(H) Termie armour. Otherwise, I've got no real issue against it, given the sort of permanently available abilities the Librarian & Techmarine are trotting around with by this stage of the game.

Hygric said:

Different approach - Terminator Armour must be requisitioned not because it's rare, but because it's not yours - Terminator Armour belongs to the Chapter, and thus can't be taken as Signature Wargear - each time you use it, you borrow it from the Chapter armoury. Artificer armour cannot be requisitioned - you can't simply walk up to the armoury and borrow a suit - and must be taken as Signature Wargear, because the item belongs to that character (in as much as Astartes can own their wargear), and may even have been made or customised specifically for him. It isn't about rarity, it's about the nature of individual items and the attitudes surrounding them.

I'm sold on that logic!

Despite the Errata, I'm not against the idea as long as it's something you're comfortable with in your game. If he's willing to pay the points, not scavenge off of the groups requisition and is basically being nice and characterful about the whole thing AND it doesn't interfere with your plans? That's the sort of player that I enjoy rewarding.

That being said, I'm an advocate of running the occasional mission where the group has to change to a different type of armour for a mission - heavy combat duty in Terminator armour, infiltration using scout armour, that sort of thing. So I may be biased about the whole situation because I know that I'd only be letting him bring it into missions where I want him to have it

Terminator armour is not exactly general issue. IMO it's a mission based item, just like vehicles. It's not like you would allow a bike as signature wargear (for example).

professor_kylan said:

I think this is the key here. Fluff-wise, and rules wise, he can't take it as signature wargear. If it fits your story and the 'rule of cool' then allow it. I'd be careful though, as terminator armor can be a game changer. The high AP, the force field, the actual capability to field the terminator weapons, etc., makes the suit pretty potent. Just make sure it doesn't shortchange other players.

Keep in mind that artificer armor is armor that a high level crastman has spent a lot of time on, but ultimately can be replaced. By comparison there are a finite set of terminator armor available in the Imperium as the technology to make them has been lost and presumably for no lack of trying. Nothing short of an STC manual being found is going to restore that ability, and perhaps not even then. That is the fundamental reason a person can't get it as their personal wargear.

lurkeroutthere said:

Terminator suits, IIRC, were created during the Great Crusade by the AdMech, not during the Dark Age of Technology. White Dwarf 304 talks about it, and says "Although new suits are produced by the Adeptus Mechanicus, the production rate is so slow, and the demand for them so great, that each chapter takes the utmost care of its precious remaning suits."

This doesn't diminish the fact that they're rare and treasured relics, difficult to build and maintain, mind you.

I would probably say if you have been playing a character who has earned the right to wear termie armor, AND you have a particular weapon configuration you 9/10 of the time would select (well suited to your stats and talents), house rule a Talent that works like Sig Wargear (Hero), and take it as an Elite Advance, and PAY OUT THE BACK for it. If it is practically a unique device the way you have it, rather than three separate, expensive components), it should work, and you lose some of the versatility, since you won't have Techmarines kitting the armor for each mission, rather than by your single design. If you were playing a GK Terminator, for instance, and knew that everyday, you were going to take that same Nemesis Force Sword and Astartes Psycannon into battle, I, for one, might let you take Sig Wargear for the set, and you can't change it up later, but it would be a rare Talent taken. If you want Terminator armor, AND the freedom to choose the weapons each time, then no; the cost flexibility of the weapons, and such, would make it too much. It would be better to just pay req at that point, if the mission allows, and get what you need. Besides, how much extra stuff could you want on the mission you already are taking TD armor, mounting a heavy flamer and a power hammer into? At that point, it just feels like 100+ req points you want to slip your teammates, which isn't how sharing points is supposed to work.

Errata Wise, if you are comfortable with a character in terminator armour then as the gm please go ahead. However I'm also sold on the notion that not every mission warrants the use of a suit of terminator armour.

Whether or not a character gets to suit up does not only depend on whether he can afford to requisition the armour but also on the mission requirements itself; its certainly not for covert operations.

You may want to take a look at the Deathwing Terminator speciality in First Founding.
Costs 3000 xp, gives him an Astartes Terminator Armour and access to some nice extra Advances and Special Abilites (if he is a Dark Angel, then fine, else I would change them up a little bit and alter the xp cost accordingly).

In addition, he may even choose a Terminator-compatible weapon as his Signature Wargear.

Deepstriker said:

I totally agree with this, not all missions warrant taking such a holy relic into the field (even if Deathwing's get it for free, which is a hard pill to swallow, and I'd be reluctant to let anyone in my group take it). Though the value of taking one on , tough I imagine it depends on the campaign style- some campaigns may not have a lot of covert ops, in which case the terminator armor could be extremely useful. In a more covert style game, it might even be a handicap.

Brother_Trahaerne said:

I think he does have to buy Signature Wargear separately as usual though. It doesn't seem that he gets anything new as standard issue beyond the "basic" Terminator armor. Wouldn't be a bad investment to grab at least one piece of Terminator-only gear as Signature though.

Kshatriya said:

Yes, I think that's what he was saying- take the terminator armor as the Deathwing class, then purchase the terminator weapon system as signature wargear. For a Deathwing, it really does kind of make sense.

Personally that's one reason I don't like the combo there though- that gives someone essentially 90 free req for every mission with one talent, which somehow seems...not cricket. Though the class/upgrade to get the armor is 3k, and you would have to spend your Signature Wargear (Hero) in the event you wanted a Cyclone or Assault Cannon, as Sig Wargear (Master) is simply the upgraded Sig Wargear, which has a cap of 20 req. But you could get storm bolters or the like anyhow.

All in all, that's a lot of XP, and they'll be missing out on other talents/abilities other players will have, so maybe it's not so imbalanced after all. Still say not all missions would justify sending out a Terminator, much like they wouldn't all justify sending out a Dread.

Gotcha. I have seen people on other sites arguing that the buy-in gave a piece of Terminator weaponry as signature as well, that's why I brought it up.

And I agree that there may be missions where the Deathwing's Watch-Captain says "no, tactical dreadnought armor is not appropriate for the parameters of this mission." Though i can imagine no small number of players crying foul, it's a valid limitation so long as it's not used simply to screw the player who's invested a lot of XP into a Terminator build.

Kshatriya said:

I can see First Company Veterans hardly getting vetoed unless it is really inappropriate for the mission (Stealth/Recon). One of hidden (social) bonuses for the advanced specialty - I would make it such. (Similar for Watch Captains.)

Alex