Hello everyone, i recently started playing AGoT LCG. I understood all that was in the rulebook and i learned some other stuff on this forum but i still have a few "unknown variables", like the followings:

1.How do i use Lucas Blackwood(Response: After Lucas Blackwood is killed, you may initiate a M challange against an opponent of your choice as your next player action this phase.)? The thing that is confusing to me is the "as your next player action this phase" part.

2.Can i save a card that has Nymeria(Response: Kneel Nymeria to save attached character from being killed.) attached to it when me or my opponent reveals Valar Morghulis?

3.Locations like Northern Fiefdoms (Marshalling: Kneel Northern Fiefdoms to lower the cost of the next Stark card you play this phase by 1.) are usable on the same turn i play them?

and the last one

4.Cards like Meera Reed, Syrio or Arya Stark which have in their textboxes stuff like : "if killed return to shadow instead", "return to shadow if u win a challange with it" and so on, pay the 2 gold again to return to shadow or they just simply go back to shadow without paying anything?

Thanks.

Andy99 said:

1. You next player action is a M challenge, not sure how else to explain it. Review the flow charts for more info on Player Actions and when they occur.

2. Yes

3. Yes

4. Go back in for free, but cost must be paid when taking them out again.

Andy99 said:

1. A player action is a timing term. Marshalling a card, triggering a phase-specific or "any phase" ability are all player actions (the kind which alternate between players), and are different from Framework actions (Declaring a challenge during the challenge phase, claiming dominance, taxation) or passives, responses, and save/cancel responses. For more information on the flow of these, have a look at the official FAQ flow-charts. Essentially, whenever it becomes your turn to take a player action, you may initiate a M challenge then. If you choose to take another action (say, playing a "Challenges:" event), you've used your "next player action", and may no longer take advantage of lucas blackwood's ability.

2. Yes. I can't think why you'd think otherwise; so long as Nymeria is standing, you can trigger her to save a character from a kill effect (like Valar). The exception would be if kill effect specifically stated the characters could not be saved (for instance, with Wildfire Assault).

3. Yes. There's no "summoning sickness" in AGOT, nor do they come into play knelt. There's no reason you can't use them on the turn you play them.

4. The 2g to put a card into shadows is specific to when you put a card into shadows from your hand. You don't have to (nor can you) pay gold to put Syrio back into shadows. However, you will have to pay the cost to bring them out of shadows (eg, 1g for Meera) when you do bring them out again.

Thanks for the quick responses, what can i say..all is clear now . So for example if i'm player 1 and i already initiated my challanges (including Military one) and on player 2's turn i choose to kill Lucas i can initiate another Military? And thanks again for clearing things up for me.

Yes you can! In fact, if Lucas dies to a Plot, like Valar, you can even initiate a M challenge during the plot phase, provided it's your next action!

Lucas Blackwood say hello to my Stark deck.

Thanks again for the help guys.

One thing to keep in mind for Lucas: because he specifies "as your next player action this phase," he is referring to your next opportunity to take an action. Essentially, you have to use your chance to declare the military challenge immediately, or lose it.

For example, if you lose a military challenge and choose to kill Lucas for claim, you are going to have to initiate the extra military challenge immediately - in the opportunity for all players to take actions between that military challenge and the active player initiating their next challenge. You cannot, for example, wait through your opponent's intrigue and power challenges (without triggering any actions) and then initiate the challenge from Lucas.

So while Lucas is very, very good, make sure you choose when to kill him carefully because you aren't allowed to sit on that extra challenge, waiting for a "better" time to initiate it.

ktom said:

Can I bug you to go into a bit more detail on why this is the case? The way you described is the way I thought it worked originally, but after much thought I reversed myself. If you wait through several player action windows (without taking any actions in the interim), then initiate his ability after the subsequent challenge ends, then technically, initiating that challenge still was/is your next player action. My logic being that invoking his response was creating the opportunity for you to initiate a challenge in any legal player action window (not mid challenge) for the rest of the phase, so long as you take no player actions in the interim.

Compare the wording on Lucas to Val , then check the FAQ's explanation for Val's timing.

Both cards refer to your "next action." Val's timing defines this as your next action opportunity, not the next action you choose to take. It is clear that you cannot hold onto the card you get with Val until you want to play that card, even if you take no other action before playing it. You either play it as your "next action" opportunity, or you lose it.

Granted, there is a "must" vs. "may" aspect between the two cards, but that has more to do with the fact that Val's ability does not let you ignore play restrictions on the card you get with her (triggering an Dominance event in the Marshaling phase, for example). Reading the "next action" wording as your "next action opportunity" still holds.

ktom said:

tyvm, and as a follow up, does this extend to mean the next LEGAL opportunity? Meaning, if Lucas is somehow killed in that middle Player Action Window during a challenge, does the ability to initiate that challenge fizzle?

dh098017 said:

It is no different, really, from getting a Dominance event when using Val in the Marshaling phase.

It's another example of a card in this game that if it had 1 or 2 more words in the effect we would be without a question. :-)

-Istaril said:

In my experience, this specific question is the most commonly asked question in AGoT. Because everyone reads Valar for the first time and goes "that is so overpowered" and assume that it's somehow unstoppable - all characters must die! - whereas Nymeria is just a poxy little 2 cost attachment. If I had a gold dragon for the amount of times I've seen a new player just sweep their board clear of characters and ignore all their saves when a Valar is turned over, I'd be Tywin Lannister.

Circadia said:

It is something about plots and losing challenges that people, especially those new to the game, seem to think must be absolute. Either that, or they can't believe the "save" mechanic is as good as it is.

Ok, which answer is correct? Lucas Blackwood

ktom said:

OK, I'm probably just over-thinking things--it's the rules forum, it's how things work around here--but I am suddenly confused about how Lucas Blackwood works. Could anyone provide an example of a situation where he can't be triggered? I expect the answer will be obvious, but now I'm wondering if there are situations that I'm not seeing.

How about this. I am a Targ player, I declare attackers, then in the next action window I Flame-Kiss Lucas. The person who owns Lucas must now use is Response or lose it. Unfortunately we are mid-challenge, and you cannot initiate a challenge from within a challenge. His response would then fizzle.

dh098017 said:

Kind of like giving the Joust keyword to Orell the Eagle. (I'll give that one a moment to sink in....)

Rogue30 said:

The answer in this thread is correct. In the other thread, I will admit that in the heat of considering the "duration of challenge," I forgot to take into account the precedent from Val defining "next player action" as "next player action opportunity" instead of "next player action taken."

I know how much you like it when I contradict myself.

I guess what's confusing me is killing Lucas for claim. I can use his response to get a Military challenge out of that, right? Because the Player Action window I'd use him in is the one before the next challenge would be declared? Whereas the Player Action windows after attackers are knelt and the one after kneeling defenders (i.e. the ones that take place within an active challenge) are not legal places to use his response?

(I feel like this is somewhat self-evident, but I want to make sure I understand.)

Start with the FAQ entry:

(3.36) Additional Challenges through Card Effects
A player can never initiate an additional challenge during the resolution of a prior challenge.
For example: Shadow Politics (KLE F18) allows a player to initiate an additional INT challenge as a standard player action. This action cannot be taken during the resolution of another challenge.

So you cannot initiate Challenge #2 during Challenge #1.

alpha5099 said:

But other than that little technicality, yes. If he dies at a time when the next Player Action Window is within the duration of another challenge, there is no point in triggering his Response.

Just a couple of quick questions:

1. Is Lucas Blackwood's ability counted as an "additional" challenge? Let's say I use Greywind to kill him during marshalling and then use Lucas' ability. Aim I still allowed a military challenge during the challenge phase?

2. If you attack with a 0 STR character that goes undefended, do you still get the claim for the challenge?

ktom said:

OK, I'll bite. What option that cannot be exercised do you give yourself when you give the Joust keyword to Orell the Eagle? To my feeble mind it seems pretty straightforward - When Orell has Joust and is attacking alone, his challenges are always unopposed. Unless I'm mistaken, you infer that it is not so. Please enlighten us.

Ratatoskr said:

Arokasi said:

Arokasi said: