What are the noble ranks of the empire and in what order? Who and what is a Graf, a Count, a Baron, a Lord?

What would you call a noble with no land? What woukld you call a noble with no land and title?

Take Lord Aschaffenburg. How is he different from Baron Manfred Holzenhauer or Graph Siegfred Von Saponetheim? Your thoughts...

Dear Fenderstat,

I can not answer this question within the 3rd edition framework. Nonetheless, I will answer it the best I can from a Background source book from the 1st edition of the game. The article appearing in the book is quite vast, due to the lack of space I will keep it short. A pitty because it is worth the reading.

Noble Rank 1 -> Knight, Lord, Lady

Noble Rank 2 -> Baron, Margrave

Noble Rank 3 -> Count

Noble Rank 4 -> Duke

Noble Rank 5 -> Elector, Grand Duke, Grand Prince

A noble with no land and title can be a Knight (if he belong to a Knightly Order) or simply Lord or Lady.

A part from the first Rank of nobility, the Ranks 2 - 5 are tied to the land, and the Emperor has the right to redistriute the title to the most worthy family. Also, only the Electors can redistribute old titles and create new ones (by shaving off a piece of his domain for example).

What follows are the average possessions expected from each of the ranks

Rank 1 -> Some amount of wealth, a horse and at least one servant (a PC may do the job)

Rank 2 -> Considerable amount of wealth, 3 horses, Fortified Dwelling, Marks of Office, a few servants: a Chamberlain, a Baliff, a Herald, 3 cooks, 10 maids, 20 general servants and 50 men-at-arms.

Rank 3 -> The same as Rank 2 but a coach, at least one more horse, a small manor, a Falconer, falcons, a Master of Hounds, hunting hounds, Laidies-in-waiting (you are married, aren't you?)

Rank 4 -> The same as Rank 3 but a piece of the empire, coaches, barges, boat ships, many horses, castle with a keep, bailey and walls, Mistresses, Servants by the score, Scribes, artisans, bombardiers, sappers, Engineers, craftsmen, 50-100 more ment-at-arms

Rank 5 -> The same as Rank 4 but a considerable piece of a real state...like a province, a major castle, town house, several country retreats, all the servants of rank 4 and below probably twice in number, 2000 mea-at-arms, 500 archers, 500 cavalrymen, a few templars and good contacts among the mercenary fraternities.

Dear Fenderstat,

I can not answer this question within the 3rd edition framework. Nonetheless, I will answer it the best I can from a Background source book from the 1st edition of the game. The article appearing in the book is quite vast, due to the lack of space I will keep it short. A pitty because it is worth the reading.

Noble Rank 1 -> Knight, Lord, Lady

Noble Rank 2 -> Baron, Margrave

Noble Rank 3 -> Count

Noble Rank 4 -> Duke

Noble Rank 5 -> Elector, Grand Duke, Grand Prince

A noble with no land and title can be a Knight (if he belong to a Knightly Order) or simply Lord or Lady.

A part from the first Rank of nobility, the Ranks 2 - 5 are tied to the land, and the Emperor has the right to redistriute the title to the most worthy family. Also, only the Electors can redistribute old titles and create new ones (by shaving off a piece of his domain for example).

What follows are the average possessions expected from each of the ranks

Rank 1 -> Some amount of wealth, a horse and at least one servant (a PC may do the job)

Rank 2 -> Considerable amount of wealth, 3 horses, Fortified Dwelling, Marks of Office, a few servants: a Chamberlain, a Baliff, a Herald, 3 cooks, 10 maids, 20 general servants and 50 men-at-arms.

Rank 3 -> The same as Rank 2 but a coach, at least one more horse, a small manor, a Falconer, falcons, a Master of Hounds, hunting hounds, Laidies-in-waiting (you are married, aren't you?)

Rank 4 -> The same as Rank 3 but a piece of the empire, coaches, barges, boat ships, many horses, castle with a keep, bailey and walls, Mistresses, Servants by the score, Scribes, artisans, bombardiers, sappers, Engineers, craftsmen, 50-100 more ment-at-arms

Rank 5 -> The same as Rank 4 but a considerable piece of a real state...like a province, a major castle, town house, several country retreats, all the servants of rank 4 and below probably twice in number, 2000 mea-at-arms, 500 archers, 500 cavalrymen, a few templars and good contacts among the mercenary fraternities.

And since you asked for the rank of Graf - that equals Count. (And Herzog equals Duke.)

The only thing I disagree about in comparison with the poster above, is that the different ranks have more horses and coaches. A knight with only one horse would be a very poor knight, in my understanding. A Baron without a coach? He probably will not be invited to a ball even in Übersreik (but he’ll show up nevertheless, of course)

This is pretty much how they are ranked in Lure of Power, except that it is in typical wfrp3-specifics-free "style."

Rank 6 is the emporer.

jh

****! I am already delaying too much the adquisition of the Lure of Power supplement!

Thanks so much for the super clear break down. I was having similar confusion with all the terms. I was tending to just bucket Lords into a noble group and commoners into their own group but this makes it quite a bit easier to see the real scope of their noble holdings.

Kudos.

Gitzman

Wow thank you very much! This was exactly what I needed. +rep good sir!

While we're on the subject, does the 1 Gold per rank per month stipend seem kinda low? Looking at the core rules, a mercenary makes more than 2 a month. They shouldn't necessarily get the full 100g per month that Landed Nobles get (at least at lower ranks), but to be paid less than an artisan seems like they are being low-balled.

They don't get it for being lazy, either. LoP goes on about how they have to fulfill the duties of their rank to get paid.

I think that 1 gold per month stipend doesnt represent the entire income of that noble. It is just a portion. The rest of it would/should come from the nobles other business interests such as investments, deals, bribes, payoffs, interest, etc.

Gitzman

Yepesnopes said:

What is the name of this book, I must have it!

The book is called "Apocrhypha now: A companion volumen for gamemasters and players" by Hogshead publishing 1995. Product code is HP2020.

You will be interested mainly in section 1 chapters 2 (Nobility and Royalty) and 3 (Social Standing).