I've a question about cards like Escort from Edoras which are discarded after the questing (or attack) is redsolved...Can I play cards To save them, after counting their will (or attack) and before they're discarded?

If there would be a card whose text read "Response: When a character is leaving play, instead remove all his damage markers and leave him in play", you could negate the discarding. I can't remember that such a card exists right now. (The willpower of the Escort counts in any case, since it is discarded only after the quest is resolved.) But you can use To The Eyrie or Stand and Fight to get back an ally (into hand or play), but only after the character has been destroyed, so cards attached to it are lost.

Don't forget that Escort is discarded by a Forced effect, which is resolved as soon as the prerequisites are fulfilled and before any other response (FAQ 1.09), and not at the end of the phase quest. Therefore you would not have the possibility to return it in your hand using a non-Forced Response or an Action effect because those would only occur after the Forced response.

Otherwise, it is theoretically possible to retrieve a card which should be discarded at the end of a phase, if a Response or a Player Action can be played before the end of the phase. Again this adds up to the debate Meneldor/Vassal and emphasizes the need of a precise definition of the play sequence.

Hm, I don't know what the Meneldor/Vassal question is about, so perhaps I'm lagging behind with my arguments a bit...

I agree that forced effects should happen before anything else, but I included this thinking in the previous post - the Escort is destroyed, and the forced effect fully resolved. The Escort goes to the discard pile. And only then a player can trigger the response on To The Eyrie - after the ally is destroyed, just as To The Eyrie reads.

But yes, a precise definition of play sequence is needed in my oppinion, too.

So What would you do? Do you allow yourself to play Meneldpr's before discading the Vassal?

If you're asking me - yes, I would allow it. I would play Meneldor's flight between the 2nd and 3rd step in combat (after the attacking strength has been calculated, but before the damage has been dealt). There's an action window between those two steps, so Meneldor's Flight would fit in pretty good.

But since this is the first time I thought about it, and I don't see the problem, perhaps you shouldn't put too much weight on my opinion, better wait for zeb's or someone else's answer

And I realized an error in my first post. Forget the "response: when ... instead..." part with my hypothetical card text. This would only work if responses can be triggered before the resolution of forced effects, and that's a question of timing/play sequence. And currently, Forced Effects are resolved before Responses can be triggered, so that's not possible. Like you pointed out, Zeb. I think my hypothetical card would work if it had the Disrupt trigger like in CoC... (And perhaps Eleanor should have a Disrupt instead of a Response, too. Since her Response is trying to modify a When Revealed (=subtype of Forced Effect), which would resolve before she even could use her Response .)

HilariousPete said:

Yes, the Meneldor's effect is another timing debate similar to this one, which lead to lenghty discussions and many opinions there and there.

I am of the same opinion than you, that you can play Meneldor's action between step 2 and 3, but note this only works for player's attack but not enemy's attack because their sequence are different: enemy attack does not interrupt damage calculation and assignation, and according to FAQ 1.09, Forced effect of Vassal would occur before you could play Meneldor's action (I applied the same logic to answer the question about Escort). This is also assuming that the th calculated in step 2 of player's attack carries over step 3 even if an attacking character is removed from play (such as Vassal). This may change if there is a new FAQ/ruling, but that is what I play by strictly following the turn/phase sequence.

HilariousPete said:

(And perhaps Eleanor should have a Disrupt instead of a Response, too. Since her Response is trying to modify a When Revealed (=subtype of Forced Effect), which would resolve before she even could use her Response .)

I had a thought about this very good point, but you forget you have to apply the Golden Rule. Since Eleanor's card specifically says to ignore "When Revealed" effect, then it overrides the basic sequence rule and allows applying its effect before Forced effects. Maybe one day we will have a card that specifies that Forced effects have to be played after actions, and this would override the FAQ rule 1.09

zeb said:

Now I've read the 2 pages you linked to and I can understand the problem

Your analysis of the asymmetry of defending against enemies / attacking enemies is good. While defending, there's no action window between the "calculate damage" and "deal damage" substeps (you called it atomic somewhere - are you a programmer?), but when attacking, there is. But still I think we as players won't be able to solve the Winged Guardian/Meneldor's Flight problem. The rules grant the players an action window at the end of each step. So at the end of step 4 of resolving the attack of an enemy, too. The question is: Does this action window still belong to step 4, or are the action windows between steps not belonging to the resolution of an attack? The first option would allow rescueing a WG with MF before the Forced effect of the WG triggers, the latter not. I'm slightly in favour of the first one (if the action windows while resolving an attack do not belong to the resolution, where do they belong instead?), but that's pure speculation, and only FFG can answer it IMO.

zeb said:

You're right, I've overlooked the golden rule overriding FAQ rule 1.09, and there's no problem with Eleanor (or Frodo or A Test of Will likewise, and perhaps even Hasty Stroke or Dunedain Watcher if Shadow Effects should turn out being Forced Effects, too). But even with all that being clear, I'd still applaud a "Disrupt:" trigger clearing up such issues (or call it "Impede:" or "Disband:" or something to catch the LotR style better). Because every cancellation card (or future healing cards which prevent damage before it is done) will need to override the FAQ rule and probably mess up a (coming?) play sequence wich doesn't contain an extra slot for "responses that override rule 1.09". Better create a new trigger word for this slot from the beginning... Perhaps FFG thought "LotR is a cooperative game, so players are not playing against each other and there's no need for Disrupts", but players are playing against something: the encounter deck. Now players are just cancelling its cards instead of the opponent's cards...

HilariousPete said:

Haha, yes. Actually I am a biologist but do bioinformatics for a living.

HilariousPete said:

Well I see the point, and agree that the boundaries of combat/quest/other action resolution are important part of a definitive answer. My interpretation is that combat is resolved when damage is applied, but I might be wrong. But even if there were an action window after step 4 of enemy attack, the Forced effect of Vassal, by rule FAQ 1.09, would precede the Action of Meneldor, so I do not see how Vassal could be rescued. I think another level of ambiguity comes from the fact these Forced effects are called "Forced Response" in FAQ 1.09, and I wish the word Response were printed on the card. Because Responses are played before player action windows, by definition. There is a great sheet there and this is how I play the turn sequence.

HilariousPete said:

I think refining the vocabulary is a very good proposal, although I don't see FFG reprinting the cards. In my view, FAQ 1.09 refine the order of actions within a sub-phase, depending on their type, and this is only one step of what should be a full clarification, which would lead to make FAQ 1.09 unnecessary. What is now needed is a very strict a clear turn/phase sequence as soon as possible, because it may become more and more difficult as the game expands with new cards.

zeb said:

Yeah, another programmer Sometimes I'm doing some programming too, but not for a living right now.

zeb said:

Umm, you meant Winged Guardian instead of Vassal, right? (Because we're talking about the player-defending case. And of course we're talking about a player who can't spend the 1 Tactics resource for WG). Rescueing WG would be possible if the action window in step 4 also belongs to combat resolution. So in this case the order would be:

• Combat resolution starts. Do step 1+2+3 and the action windows... I don't describe it in detail here.
• Step 4: calculate + deal damage. Combat still counts as "resolving", but hasn't "resolved" yet, since it's still going on.
• Action window in step 4. It also belongs to combat resolution. Combat hasn't resolved yet. Now I play Meneldor's Flight, and take WG into my hand. EDIT: Changed it to be "in step 4" to make sense with the FAQ entry.
• Combat is fully finished and only at this point, the combat counts as "resolved", and WG's Forced Effect would trigger if WG would still be in play. But WG is already in the hand.

If the last action window doesn't belong to combat resolution, the last 2 points have to be swapped and playing MF is not possible because the Forced Effect of WG comes first. This is why I said that only FFG can solve the problem, since I couldn't find anything about wether the last action window belongs to combat or is considered to be held after combat.

I've taken a look at the sheet, version 10 (I think this is the most recent. A lot of work went into the detailed sequence, thx to its creator!) The action window has the number 6.2.1.5. So it's also there a part of the combat resolution (6.2.1). EDIT: Forget it, I totally overlooked the white "resolve any after XYZ attacks Forced events"...

zeb said:

Totally agree! But I guess it takes a lot of time to set up a proper play sequence and thoroughly test it. So better the next FAQ comes late, but with a solid play sequence.

HilariousPete said:

Ooops sorry, I am a bit tired. I'll have to think about it. Here it might be necessary to know when a combat is considered as resolved indeed.

HilariousPete said:

I am a bit concerned that Nate has been usually promptly answering to the rules question in general, but not to the timing issues that have been recently raised. Either he has been extremely busy, which is very possible, either this is very difficult to solve and he is careful before taking decisions that can affect the core design of the game. Although I am confident he will come up with a solution, I would be glad if he could acknowledge the question and at least tell us he and his team are working on it.

HilariousPete said:

I reckon the problem comes from the fact we miss when exactly a combat is resolved, and this may be hinted by the strange formulation "After an attack in which Winged Guardian defends resolves", or "After an attack in which Vassal of the Windlord attacked resolves". That is very convoluted even for a non native-English speaker. Maybe it is a way to tell us: hey guys, you may build clever card interactions by using timing tricks.

Now you mean that we only need the timed definition of "resolved" to solve the issue. If it is before the Player action window at the end of step 4, then WG cannot be retrieved with Meneldor, but if it is resolved after that window, then he can be returned into hand. Contrary to what I wrote above, the problem is not that it is Forced, it is to know when the effect actually triggers. I am fine with this and retract my previous hypothesis then.

PS: if we return to the original question about Escort from Edoras, then is the problem the same? We need to know if a quest is resolved at the end of 3.4 or after player action window 3.5?

zeb said:

I'm not concerned, at least not yet. Perhaps he's on vacation, or has to do other stuff (I think he is involved in the Star Wars LCG, too), or the submitted rules questions just got too much and his boss told him to set priority to other things (like updating the FAQ, which will reach all players and not only the individual who submitted the question). But I will be concerned if we get another FAQ in half a year and there's no timing structure / play sequence in it.
Telling the LotR community that a play sequence is in progress would be great, yes. (But I don't think this will happen, since FFG members usually don't post in this forum.)

zeb said:

Yes, exactly!

zeb said:

Yeah, that would be good for the OP ;-) You're right, the problem is the same. There is an action window at the end of step 3 of quest phase. If the quest counts as resolved after this action window, there is the possibility of rescueing the Escort. Even with Born Aloft. (Which would actually make it a much better card, since I thought it was only useful on Gandalf.) But if the quest is considered resolved before the last action window, there's no possibility to rescue the Escort. (At least as long as there's no card which allows rescueing it with a response written in a way overriding rule 1.09...)

Again, I can't find anything useful if I want to answer this timing question. Or only contradictory, to be more precise. On p. 30, the "Resolve quest" step is red, and after it comes a (indented) green "player action" step. This could indicate that the action window is not part of the quest resolution. But perhaps the indentation instead means that this action window just a part of the quest resolution. Or I can refer to p. 14, and read the "Players have the opportunity to take actions and play event cards at the end of each step" literally and since it's not worded "after the end" I can regard the action window belonging to step 3... So there are reasons for both answers. And also I have to change the opinion of my first post to the OP's question t to "I really don't know"

Many thanks for your answer HilariousPete. I have just submitted a series of questions to Nate regarding these timing issues, the question of when attack and quest phases are resolved, and if action windows are part of a step or separate and if they occur before or after the resolutions. I think they cover all our concerns and questions you highlight in your post. If I get an answer I'll post it immediately.

Great idea. Even if you don't get an answer in the next time, it increases chances that the next FAQ will include timing issues

Cheers,
Pete

Hi,

Got an answer: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=201&efcid=4&efidt=589087

Cheers,

Zeb