I got 2 questions, and I'd like to see what people think:

1. Hammerhand:

And I quote: "While this power is in effect, your Strenght Bonus is multiplied by 4..." This is the same as saying that you gain Unnatural Strenght x4, but you have to figure that it doesn't say that for a reason. So when making Strenght tests you will not get the automatic degrees of successes, but it doesn't say that this multiple of 4 only counts toward calculating damage, so by that logic does your Strenght Bonus get miltiplied by 4 when jumping? Sounds strange to me. And how about carrying, lifting and pushing? Should you get 4 times your Strenght Bonus when calculating that? So what do you say, should the phrase "this only counts toward calculating damage" be added to the power or should other things be affected as well?

2. Cellular Control vs. Shape Flesh

Both these powers are sustainable but Cellular Control has a special rule about sustaining it, and I quote: "Each round you sustain this power, you must succeed on a Toughness Test. On a failed Test you suffer 1d5 points of Damage, ignoring your Toughness Bonus and Armour, as your body begins to break from the strain." Now according to my understanding of this rule, begining with the very first round you need to make this Toughness Test of suffer the Damage, which seems a little harsh to me, especially when you consider Shape Flesh, which if you think about it, should be able to put considerably more stain on your body when you, for example, grow an extra pair of legs from nowhere, and the PT is only 3 points higher. But how else should you read it? I considered that you could start counting as though you're sustaining it only after the 10 rounds you're guarantueed with every sustainable power. But then you make Hollocaust way too powerfull since you " take 1d10+1 Energy Damage (ignoring Toughness Bonus and armour ) each round you sustain this power." So what do you say? Is Cellular Control really that much better than Shape Flesh that you need the extra rule?

I'm thankful for any input on my 2 problems.

My take on this..

HammerHand: The name of the power says it all. The bonus is only for the sake of damage.

BUT to be fair, I have absolutely no proof of this, as I'm @ work and rarely carry my rulebook with me. So I simply use the KISS method to determine what they might have meant when they wrote it, and I think they would have mentioned it in the describtion of the power. (KISS= Keep It Simple, Stupid)

IF it was supposed to help the char lift, jump etc. the power would be named " ImbaH MusCLe maN"

On your other matter.... * Runs away *

Yeah, I'm leaning toward that conclusion as well, though I think it would be cool to aply it to carry, lifting and pushing, since you could without problems reach 20 and start throwing around object weighing a ton or more. =)

As for my other problem.... *looks around confused*

huh, he dissapeared.... I didn't even get a chance to say thanks for the input. Oh well, maybe he'll come back.

xenobiotica said:

the first one gives you the ability to ignore effects, such as poison, and fatigue which outside of game balance, is a specific stimulus that you receive multiple times in many different fashions.

the second alters the form once, and you simply use that form to a desired end, in your example of adding extra legs think of this, it is much harder to pickup, or put down a heavy object than it is to simply hold it.

Chance Silas said:

You gain, for instance, immunity to fatigue or poison for one round and you might suffer 5 wounds from it, and when you end the ability you'll still suffer from any fatigue and/or poison you had before you manifested the power. Seems a little harsh to me. And what exactly are you trying to get across with "is a specific stimulus that you receive multiple times in many different fashions"? It could just as easily be seen as you alter your form (cell structure/immune system ) once, and you simply use that form to a desired end (be immune to fatigue/poison).

As for the extra legs, there's nothing that states that you look like a centaur when you use that power, so it does not necessarily make it harder to crouch or bend over, or did you mean that as a metaphor, in which case I am completely baffled as to what you mean by it.

Both powers can be manifested multiple times, each time adding an different effect. All in all, I don't find them all that different, but maybe that's just me...

xenobiotica said:

apparently, if you want to rewrite the way the power works then you need to rename it. if you want a specific line by line every single little detail spelled out, then this is not the game for you.

Cellular control: you are controlling the way your cells operate and function on the individual level. in comparison it is like juggling torches, knives, or chainsaws.

Shape Flesh: you are resculpting yourself once the new form is attained it is as I mentioned much like picking up something heavy, doing it is difficult, sustaining it is not.

Chance Silas said:

Not the game for me? Because I like to discuss rules? Aren't you being a little too serious right now? I was just voicing a different opinion that's all...

And you talk about both these powers as though you know how difficult it is change and maintain cellular structure, you don't happen to be a biologist do you?

Furthermore, if you take that view, I could just as easily take the view that you cause a temporary mutation within your genes, and this change allows you to enjoy new benifits for a short while, and when you end the power the mutation is reversed.

You got a wierd way with words, my friend. That "picking up something heavy" metaphor was way far fetched, and some people are very good at juggling things like knifes, and can do that for more than six secons without causing 1d5 wounds to themselves. it's obvious we're both just arguing opinoins here, and I don't see mine as being RAI, but if you can't see that, maybe this is not the thread for you...

xenobiotica said:

I'm Always serious, with the threat of the encroaching chaos we cannot afford the luxury of levity XD, again my point is that the game leaves more than half of each situation up to the person running the game, not a hard set of rules. you have to feel it out, the group, the situation, the intent, the spirit....

if you are causing a temporary mutation with a psychic power that power's name would not be "cellular control" that is the point I'm trying to get across, the specific power invoked is not a set of rules it is an effect with a mind of its own. you are taking complete control of your body on a cellular level for an intended purpose, if you are poisoned you become immune to that poison who's to say that the poison you were afflicted with is no longer affecting you after the power ends? well that would be for the emperor to judge, immune to fatigue....same thing, after the power is over you are not fatigued because you were not before.

way far fetched? if I have to spell everything out I'm just gonna stop, here's one last tidbit: yes, some people are very good at juggling knives...they practiced at it, got hurt alot continue to occassionally be injured, but they are not the generic majority, they are the few, the professional, the elite. again the point is not everyone can do it and not get hurt.

since my opinions are not appreciated I won't venture here anymore. hope you find what you are looking for

Chance Silas said:

Can't help discussing rules, I like rules, I like order, that's why when rule discussions turn up during a session, many times we end up creating a house rule to cover the more specific situations we encounter. A game should rather suffer from too many rules than not enough; it's often easy to sift through all the rules and removing some that you feel makes the game more complicated than need be, but to invent your own rules usually invites discussions that distracts from gameplay.

This discussion about cellular control and shape flesh took a whole different turn than I thought, not necessarily a turn for the better. But to continue I would think that even if you suddenly gain an immunity to poison, that poison is still in your system, and if you suddenly lose the immunity, you start to suffer the poison's effect. Immunity doesn't mean the poison is flushed from your system as soon as it enters, it just means it doesn't do you any harm. Just like you can be immune to a disease but still be a carrier, what's known as a asymptomatic carrier or immune carrier. Immune to fatigue... same thing.

I'm not saying you need to spell everything out, I just found your metaphors lacking, that's all. And considering juggling, you're trying to make a case for practice makes perfect, but that doesn't really enter into it, now does it? By that logic one could argue that a psyker who has mastered biomancy should not have to make a toughness roll each round when manifesting cellular control.

I never said your opinons weren't appreciated, you've made some valid points. That "not the thread for you"-business was simply me using your own words against you, no need to be overly sensitive about it. This is a discussion forum, not an agrument forum, and I never thought the latter had incured, but... to each his own.

xenobiotica said:

now that I see where you are coming from I think I took your points the wrong way. in all the groups I've been in regardless of if it was stated in the rules or not the person we nominate as GM is the "rulebook" so if he doesn't know a rule the "rules lawyer" points out the book says X, and the GM decideds if he likes it. more often than not each situation is ruled in a different way. its not consistent (which bugs the crap outta me) but we don't break from the game to discuss rules, we do that before or after the game.

This discussion about cellular control and shape flesh took a whole different turn than I thought, not necessarily a turn for the better. But to continue I would think that even if you suddenly gain an immunity to poison, that poison is still in your system, and if you suddenly lose the immunity, you start to suffer the poison's effect. Immunity doesn't mean the poison is flushed from your system as soon as it enters, it just means it doesn't do you any harm. Just like you can be immune to a disease but still be a carrier, what's known as a asymptomatic carrier or immune carrier. Immune to fatigue... same thing.

both points are valid, and it is where I said "that would be for the emperor to decide" essentially boils down to the guy in charge, does he rule that when using cellular control (this time) due to your spectacular roll you've managed to nuetralize the poison/disease? the fatigue why were you fatigued? if you have been running for a long time simply restructuring your hemoglobin to a more efficient manner would remove that fatigue however if you are fatigued because there's not enough oxygen, that's a situation where you would return to being fatigued.

I'm not saying you need to spell everything out, I just found your metaphors lacking, that's all. And considering juggling, you're trying to make a case for practice makes perfect, but that doesn't really enter into it, now does it? By that logic one could argue that a psyker who has mastered biomancy should not have to make a toughness roll each round when manifesting cellular control.

its not neccissarily practice makes perfect, it has to take into account apptitude, a master of biomancy I might add a bonus to their toughness roll, maybe a +5% per die they didn't use to manifest the power, or similar. but again that's arbitrary and not specifically set in the rules. on a "game balance" point all the things cellular control lets you do you can't see. immune to poison? immune to fatigue? what's to stop the character from manifesting the power 5 times to get immunity to poison, fatigue, Vacuum, +10 WS, and +10 BS as soon as they step into hostile territory? however that line of thought is specifically geared toward balance, on both the enemy and PC's side. shape flesh is slightly more noticable...and should a witchunter see you might shoot you on sight. but as previously stated this game system is set up to be very different from each group playing.

I never said your opinons weren't appreciated, you've made some valid points. That "not the thread for you"-business was simply me using your own words against you, no need to be overly sensitive about it. This is a discussion forum, not an agrument forum, and I never thought the latter had incured, but... to each his own.

my comment was pointing out this game doesn't have everthing itemized, most things are left up to "common sense" or your own specific "feel" of the game rather than a hard outline. I was going to bow out because I had assumed you were coming from a different aspect of needing the rules to be defined.

Chance Silas said:

It would seem that it finally boiled down to different playing styles and different aproaches to problem solving , and while I may not agree with you, I understand your thinking better now, and can respect it.

Sometimes I wish my group would act like yours do, breaking from gameplay to discuss rules often ruin the mood, but I'm probably more to blame for the lenght of the discussions than the others since I don't really back down until I'm convinced the other party is right. And then I'm probably the one who has it easiest to get back into the mood of the moment. I remember my fellow playing wanting to strangle me for insisting on playing out my characters slurring speach, a result of my face getting torn to shreds. The upside of this manner is of course that we only need to adress each problem once (as long as we remember the result of the previous discussion, which sadly is not always the case).

You make a good argument concerning fatigue; that which you gain from, for example sprint twice in a row, now that I would be willing to agree could be remedied by cellular control, and as you said, it'll probably be left to the GM how to handle the case of immunity anyway, after a healthy discussion with me of course. =)

Now the first thing that would stop a player from manifesting cellular control 5 times is that it's not possible to sustain more than 4 powers at any given time, the second thing is that you cannot increase WS or BS, only the other 7 characteristics, and even if that was possible, I read the power to mean that you can only have one instance of each of the 5 listed effect. That is, if you increase strenght, you cannot manifest it again and increase toughness, because increasing any characteristic is one of the 5 effects. This from what it say at the very end of the power: Unlike most powers you can manifest this multiple times. Each time, chose a different effect. I suppose you could make the argument that the increase of each characteristic is a different effect, but I think the balance would be better if it wasn't interpreted like that. Besides, after sustaining the power 3 times, you'll get a penalty of 16 to every power roll you make, That's gonna seriously lower your chances to manifest any more.

True about shape flesh, that'll probably draw consiterably more attention were you in an area containing more than your group and the hostiles, a build-in drawback as it were.

Sure the game is played diffetently from group to group, I posted these questions here to see if there was a majority either with me or against me, trying to understand if my point was worth considering or not. True, I haven't gotten that many to join in, but you've put up a good fight for your view, gotta give you that. =)

of course as long as you have fun, that's all that matters. my deathwing terminators in pink bunny slippers agree XD