Another noob question from one of my players:

Need some clarification (and page reference if you can point me in the right direction):

1. During character creation, my initiate wants to "acquire" piety. Does it cost two points since it is advanced?

2. During character creation, my ironbreaker has career abilities in willpower and toughness. How many points does it cost to raise my fellowship from 2 to 3?

Seems if #1 costs 2, shouldn't an out of career ability advance at creation also cost more than usual? Is that the case?

I believe it only costs 1 point to acquire an advanced skill if it is on your career card (both one creation point at character generation and one advance beyond that). The low cost is part of the allure of careers with advanced skills.

Regarding characteristics, I wouldn't charge an extra point for them. Career card characteristics get a one point bump at creation while the others get shafted. Thus, a human getting a 4 in a career characteristic only has to spend 4 creation points since it gets bumped to 3 for free. Getting a 4 in an out of career characteristic costs 7!

..I just can't find the verification in the rules... Anyone?

jh

Check out page 30. I couldn't find anything in the skill section that says advanced skills cost more to acquire during creation.

Page 28 core rules:

Generate characteristics
Each character starts with a default rating in each of his six characteristics. Players can invest creation points to improve these values. The initial value for each characteristic is based on the character’s race and starting career. First, take the values indicated on Table 3-1: Default Ratings by Race. Next, increase each of the starting career’s Primary Characteristics by one. The result is the default characteristic profile for that character.

Now the player may invest creation points to increase these values to customise the character. Increasing a characteristic rating by one requires a number of creation points equal to the new rating.

no special rules in the bold section regarding additional character creation costs outside of the career primary characteristics.

as for skills. no mention of extra cost for advanced skills on page 30. if it is on the list of skills for the career you acquire it for 1 creation point.

Seems the bit on skills would be a good errata.

jh

Emirikol said:

Skill Training
Depending on the number of creation points invested, characters will have a number of skills they may choose to train. Each career card lists a number of skills associated with that career. These are the skills the character is allowed to train or assign a specialisation for based on the number of creation points invested.

If he selects a basic skill to train, the player places a checkmark in the corresponding box in the trained column on the character sheet. If he selects an advanced skill, his character acquires the skill, but it is not yet trained. Acquiring an advanced skill allows a character to attempt checks based on that skill as if it were a basic skill. The player writes the advanced skill in the appropriate section of the character sheet.
If the character’s race provides him with the ability to train an additional skill, the player chooses which skill to train at this time.
If the player invested enough creation points to earn specialisations, he chooses those specialisations now. A character can only acquire specialisations for skills he has trained.

Its not straightforwards at all: Where does it say if education costs 2 slots or one at creation?

jh

i don't understand where the idea of 2 slots to acquire piety comes from at all. perhaps i'm missing something from my read of the rules.

where does it say that it costs 1 slot to aquire an advanced skill? in the section i marked as bold in my previous post.

"If he selects an advanced skill, his character acquires the skill, but it is not yet trained."

in your OP you did specifically ask about aquiring not training.

what isn't specifically described in the rules is can you subsequently use another slot to train the now acquired advanced skill. personally i don't see why not, after all you are expended a resource at the expense of a diverse range of skills.

Our GM is ruling it is the same as advancement: requiring 2 slots to acquire and 2 more to train (4 slots). Since I can't find a clear rule (it's currently just 'assumed') disputing that, I've necro'd this thread Your posts are very helpful btw.

jh

Went ahead and created a new thread for this question specifically for initiates. Sorry to hijack.

Dave

Arg! Found it...

Errata, p. 6

"SKILLS: ADVANCED SKILL CLARIFICATION

Accessing an advanced skill is a two-step process. A character can-
not attempt an advanced skill until he acquires the skill. Acquiring
an advanced skill is the first step in the process, at the cost of one

Skill Advance. Once an advanced skill has been acquired, a char-
acter can attempt checks based on that skill, just as if it were a basic
skill on his list of basic skills.

Once an advanced skill has been acquired, the character now has
the option to train the skill, as he would any of the basic skills avail-
able to him. Training the advanced skill would be the second step
in the process, and costs one Skill Advance. "

Emirikol said:

It doesn't cost 2 slots during advancement either though.

The only time a skill costs an extra slot(s) is if it is a non-career skill during advancement.

During creation you can only acquire/train skills that are on the career card (or those granted by your race), you don't have the option of taking skills that are non-career skills - perhaps that is where your GM is confused?

So if you spend 3 creation points on skills (which allows for 4 skills plus 2 specialisations, based on table 3-2)

With those 4 skills, you could use 1 slot to acquire an advanced skill (from career or race) and then use another slot to train the same advanced skill - this is clearly stated in the player's guide (although not so clear in the original rule book). you's still have 2 skills (or slots) remaining, after doing that though, to be used on other skills.

Hope this helps

pumpkin said:

Pumpkin, makes sense, thanks for the input!

My GM feels strongly that a cost of only one advance to train an advanced career skill is broken. Especially when the Player's Guide states that training an advanced skill *outside* the career costs four advances (p. 45).

Eradico Pravus said:

I can understand the point of view, but I don't specifically agree with it.

IMO, advanced skills are something that are difficult to learn if you don't have access to specific learning tools related to that advanced skill, they aren't more difficult to learn in and of themselves, per se (certainly not once you have learned the basics, which is represented by having to acquire them first).

If you are in a career that specifically focuses on that skill, I don't see why it should be more difficult to leanr it (and neither did the FFG designers) but each to their own, I guess.

For me, the worry would be that my player's stay away from the advanced skills because they cost more (and IMO that cost isn't justly reflected in its use, but that I mean I don't really see advanced skills as loads better than basic skills - perhaps the word advanced is a poor word to use?), and everyone just concentrates on basic skills or careers that promote basic skills and the game is therefore a poorer experience.

Yeah, that's how I'm feeling... Like I'll get more "bang for my buck" by investing in basic skills only.

Eradico Pravus said:

Certainly worth a chat with the GM I reckon - maybe suggest that advanced skills aren't really better versions of basic skills (which is perhaps what he thinks), they are just more niche skills that the general populace don't have expertise in...