So I was reading the delay action and noticed something. It allows you to hold a half action and then use it, at your choice, when it's not your turn. This does two very powerful things.

A) It is not your turn. Ergo, the rules for using attack or concentration keyword moves, or repeating half actions, don't apply. This allows you to deploy a secondary attack even after doing one on your turn. Likewise, it allows a second use of any number of psychic powers.

B) In the case of attacks, it's even more devious. Since a delayed action occurs on somebody elses turn, that somebody does not get to evade. Because reactions may not be spent on your turn, as per pg 234.

So, is this intentional? More importantly, how would people deal with these uses in-game? It does bypass the evade mechanic, but considering how people seem to think it needs a nerf anyhow, is that a bad thing? Then again, is a combat where everybody is delaying their actions really the kinda combat we want?

I think that's a rather specific and unintended reading of the rules - personally, I'd consider a "turn" for the purpose of attack actions and similar things "the time starting with your initiative count and ending when your initiative count comes round again". In the same way, I definitely wouldn't allow delay somehow bypassing evasion.

On B, I think you're right. On A, I don't see how it's useful considering you sacrifice one of your Half Actions to set up Delay, just so you can use the other one later.

Cifer said:

Well, if you count it like that, a few other weird things happen. Counter attacks, for one, no longer work if you attacked in your turn since that would be the repetition of an action with the attack keyword, since counter attack now merely enables another attack action rather than being one in and of itself. Not to mention that reactions no longer work, since they're explicitly only allowed when it's not your turn. Though that certainly solves the problem of evasions supposedly needing a nerf

In short, turns are defined as happening in a sequential order, each participant in combat getting one, in accordance with the initiative order. I'm not saying this isn't bad, I'm merely saying that by the way the rules are described it's legal. Most likely horribly broken, but legal. I don't really think it requires a lot of literal or creative thinking to find this interpretation either. Personally, I'd just add a rule saying that keyword limits still apply to half actions from delay as if though they were occurring on your own "delayed" turn.

On B, I think you're right. On A, I don't see how it's useful considering you sacrifice one of your Half Actions to set up Delay, just so you can use the other one later.

Not quite how it works. Delay is a half action. You use it, your turn ends, you get another half action to use to interrupt someone else. So you could lightning attack, a half action, then delay with your remaining one. And then use the half action from that to lightning attack again.

As for the B, I just realized it is dependent on you having a higher initiative than the guy you're attacking for it to work. If it's not your target's own turn, he still gets reactions. Which, if nothing else, counteracts the fact that it's usually the high initiative guy who ends up having his attacks dodged or parried.

Reverend mort said:

I think that's where you are wrong. You spend a half-action to delay your other half actiion. You don't get a third half-action in the process.

you say: I delay, your turn ends and you can spend your second half-action on another point in time. preferably, after someone dodged another attack.

vogue69 said:

I just checked the wording of the delay action. I think they botched something with it. I think it wasn't like that in the other publications.

vogue69 said:

The two cases you mention are clearly just a wording problem. It's a technicality. It is *clearly* intended to be used a certain way, and using them int he manner you've described is lame at best, and at worst, it's straight up cheating.

Spehktre said:

Reverend mort said:

that isn't possible. if your act in the same turn as your opponent you have to make opposed agi tests to see who acts first.

vogue69 said:

So if you attempt to act on another character's turn, you win by default. Only when two characters with delayed actions attempt to act at the same time do you make agility tests. So it's completely possible.

so if two parties act on the same initiative number, they can't evade their attacks?

vogue69 said:

Without delayed actions, characters can not act on the same initiative number. If they roll the same, the one with the highest Agility bonus goes first. If both have the same there too, both characters roll another dice each, with the highest going before the lowest. Pg 233

And if they are acting through delayed actions, they are not doing so on their own turn, and thus can evade attacks because they can spend reactions. However, if they target someone who's turn it is, that target may not evade, because Reactions may not be spent on one's own turn. (Presumably, things like Furious Assault bypass this by removing rather than "spending" them)

Reverend mort said:

H.B.M.C. said:

So thats why Overwatch is good. Never really realized that exact connection. I just thought it was always a holdover reference to Space Hulk, and more of a narrative long term action.

As far as these rules go, yeah, this most certainly needs better clarification on whether or not a delayed action counts as a "turn within a turn" or an interrupt to another turn. I would want to call it a "turn within a turn" for the sake of allowing a target to evade, because otherwise everyone delays (since almost every attack is now a half action, why not?).

The wording of delay is also poor in that by my reading it is entirely valid to take a half action first, and then delay. It only partially comes across as being against RAI (I would argue that its so plainly worded though that the intent is pretty clear though). Clearly, if they intended for it to be the only action taken during a turn, then they would make it a Full round action.

Also, for the purpose of "only one action type per turn" how do people rule that affecting delayed actions? Are they a separate "turn" or are they tied to some other action?

Theoretically, could one lightning attack (half action), delay, interrupt with a lightning attack (half action), then next turn lightning attack again (with another delay)? This certainly seems against the spirit of the rules, but I'm not seeing the wording that clearly prevents this.

I imagine my house rules on this would be to turn delay into a full round action, that exists as its own "turn" when the half action interrupt occurs (thus allowing targets to evade). Also, as an option, I allow players to pass their turn and set their place in the initiative track (do nothing do nothing your turn, and then state when you do wish to act, and setting their initiative to the point they choose to come back in at).

The Overwatch thing was a surprise for us as well. We could never work out why you'd bother, and then we realised:

1. It allows you to shoot anything that enters the area you're over-watching (so you essentially get to attack multiple times in a round).
2. As it happens in their turn, not yours, they cannot use their Reaction.

It suddenly made Overwatch completely worthwhile.

And I've always been unable to figure out if Delay costs a Half Action, leaving your another Half Action to use later, or if you can use a Half Action, then Delay, and use your other Half Action before your next turn. My group has taken the latter interpretation, and that's the way we've played it, but I've never been 100% on it.

BYE

How do you rationalize that Overwatch lets you attack multiple times? The book states "At any time the specifi ed conditions are met before the start of the character’s next Turn, he can perform that attack". It does not say "at each time" . As I read this, it will let you shoot at the first enemy to appear, then you're done.

As for the other exploits mentioned in this thread, I think this is caused by human fallibility and unclear language. Being able to repeat an action and circumventing the restriction on this by delaying so you're not acting on your own turn is probably something the designers failed to see. I doubt this is intentional.

If you as super-psyker are unable to manifest 2 powers every round, why should your grasp of the Warp be improved by waiting until Bob opens up with his autogun?

As for the Delay / Reaction issue it seems a little contrived. The Action states: " Any time before the start of his next Turn, the character can perform a delayed Half Action of his choice. " So you can wait and see what happens, and react to this. It does not say you can interrupt someone else's turn, or somehow predict their actions and react to it before it happens. In fact, nowhere does it say you act during someone else's turn, only that you may act later.

Ie, you are free to go before Bob, or wait and see what he does. If Bob decides to shoot you, you can Dodge, and shoot him back. At this point, Bobs turn is done, and he may dodge as well. It does not say that you can wait until I see Bob is about to shoot, then shoot before he does. Nor does it let you interrupt him and act between his half actions.

Darth Smeg said:

1. Because it says 'any time'. Any time those specific conditions are met, you shoot. It says nothing about being 'done' once you've shot once. You're adding language that isn't there. Besides, 'any' implies that it can happen multiple times. It needn't say 'each time' because it already says 'any time'. If it only occurred once rather than any time someone meets those conditions then there'd be no point to Overwatch at all (small arc, only a specific type of attack, penalty to do it vs delay which can fire in any direction with any type of weapon in any fire mode with no penalty).
2. I agree. I doubt the the intent was to shoot/delay/shoot again.
3. How do you use it then if you cannot use it during someone else's turn? When it's not your turn it's always going to be someone else's turn, and as you must use it before your own turn you have to - even by default - use it during someone else's turn.
4. Why wouldn't you be able to use it between someone else's half actions? The only stipulation with Delay is that you use it before your next turn. You can use it at any point during that.

BYE

Regardig overwatch and how many times it can be used, a little common sense should be applied. Say character A decides to go into overwatch and charater B to Z (who all happens to be enemies of Character A) acts after character A, and moves into character A's killzone, one after another. According to some peoples interpretation of the overwatch action in this thread, character A should then be allowed to make an attack roll for each and everyone before it's his turn again. He'll probably run out of ammo before he's finished...

Combat rounds last for a few seconds, but remember that charaters act almost at the same time, with only fractions of a second deciding who's a little bit faster than the others. It isn't like a round last 5 seconds, and while one character act, the others just stands around, waiting for him to finish his actions and acts once he's finished. By that logic, it could take minutes between a characters actions.

I believe overwatch is simply a postponement of your actions, and not a magic key to infinit attacks. It happens once, and then the action is over.

I dont't believe delay/overwatch interrupts another characters actions. That seems stupidly overpowered to me. I believe you simply push those who haven't acted yet further back in the intiative que, and normal intiative order is restored when the delayed action is resolved.

Maybe someone should ask FFG about an officila clarification in these matters?

As for the other exploits mentioned in this thread, I think this is caused by human fallibility and unclear language. Being able to repeat an action and circumventing the restriction on this by delaying so you're not acting on your own turn is probably something the designers failed to see. I doubt this is intentional.

As do I, but it's there, and so I sorta pointed the light on it in, since apparently this is a combat move that's persisted across at least two games in the line.

If you as super-psyker are unable to manifest 2 powers every round, why should your grasp of the Warp be improved by waiting until Bob opens up with his autogun?

No sense is made, but the rules allow it.

As for the Delay / Reaction issue it seems a little contrived. The Action states: "Any time before the start of his next Turn, the character can perform a delayed Half Action of his choice." So you can wait and see what happens, and react to this. It does not say you can interrupt someone else's turn, or somehow predict their actions and react to it before it happens. In fact, nowhere does it say you act during someone else's turn, only that you may act later.

Ie, you are free to go before Bob, or wait and see what he does. If Bob decides to shoot you, you can Dodge, and shoot him back. At this point, Bobs turn is done, and he may dodge as well. It does not say that you can wait until I see Bob is about to shoot, then shoot before he does. Nor does it let you interrupt him and act between his half actions.

Well then when do you act? When Bob's turn is over, it's the turn of somebody else. So you can't act then either, until you return to you, in which case the time limit has passed and you wasted a half action. It says "at any time" which, unless prefaced or followed by exclusions, means just that. AT ANY TIME. Including, unavoidably, on the turn of someone else. Which, since the rules say nothing, one can presume happens prior to or after the declared action, as one prefers. Regardless of which, unless said action is a full action, this means the turn will invariably still be interrupted and reactions, by their write up in the book, are explicitly forbidden from being used on one's own turn.

I dont't believe delay/overwatch interrupts another characters actions. That seems stupidly overpowered to me. I believe you simply push those who haven't acted yet further back in the intiative que, and normal intiative order is restored when the delayed action is resolved.

I doesn't need to interrupt for this exploit to work. As long as the action counts as happening on the turn of anybody but the attacker, said individual is incapable of active defense. We're not claiming you disrupt the initiative order somehow, merely that, since it's somebody's turn, that somebody can be attacked and unable to react. Which, regardless, doesn't prevent the bigger problem, which is the allowance of two subtype actions of the same type within a single round.

The writeup for delay clearly states spending a half action on it ends your turn, and may be used any time prior to your next turn. Black on white, said delayed action does not take effect on your own turn, which equally clearly bypasses the subtype limits, which are tied to turns, NOT rounds.

Maybe someone should ask FFG about an officila clarification in these matters.

I would, but I have harras-eh, questioned them enough that they've apparently stopped responding to my mails

Jackal_Strain said:

Overpowered compared to what?

Overwatch is a gamble. Either the enemies get into your killzone, and then it's awesome, or the enemy manages to ignore/avoid you, and you end up standing there like an idiot while the rest of the team deals with foes coming from a different angle.

Take the gamble away and the action becomes useless, as all it does can be handled just as well through either attacking on your turn or declaring a Delayed action.

A few observations:

I'm not looking at BC for this, but from Deathwatch at least, Overwatch can only be fired once. Quite simply, Overwatch is broken by taking an action. And the Overwatch shooting is an action in and of itself. Still, I do view it as interrupting a target's turn, and therefore they cannot use their reaction. Highly effective.

I do view the "delay as a half action" as a bit of an issue of just copying and pasting from the older rules. The alteration of the "major" attack actions to half actions also does not help this. My first house rule in the matter (and I think this is fair), is that a "delayed" action is just shunted from the original turn, and is therefore subject to the "one action type per round" rule. This prevents a crazy economy of actions exploit. The only remaining issue is that it is still superior to delay attacks and attack during the enemies turn (assuming you do rule that delayed actions can interrupt). In all honesty, I'd be fine with disallowing a delayed action to interrupt. I don't see anywhere where its explicitly enabled, and it doesn't make sense that some random guy can just pull this off. In fact it sounds almost like a talent in and of itself (possible house rule I guess).

Because seriously, if delaying to interrupt an action can be used by anyone, then suddenly everybody delays until their target's turn, and then fires. Also, it puts undue stress on the GM, as they must then clarify before each action an NPC takes, so as to allow the PCs to interrupt when they can.

I've sent the questions to FFG, so let's hope they answer us.

I think that the overwatch question has been cleared up enough already - You get to perform an attack action when a condition is met, the attack action ends the overwatch. That is your whole turn, and if the condition isn't met you can either sustain it next turn or swap to doing something else. It's a risky gamble, but as it allows you take an enemy by surprise without them getting an evasion it is worth it.

Delay on the other hand is still an issue. I think i'd like to throw in my 2 pennies and a bit of common sense. without further ado, the initiative track!

For this example, i am going to use characters A and B who are allied, and X and Y who are allied. These two groups are fighting each other. At the beginning of the combat, each participant rolls for initiative, and for arguments sake they get the following: A 10, B 9, X8, Y11. The highest initative is 11, so when this comes around Y gets to act first. Now without knowing what is going to happen Y chooses to delay, using up a half action and reserving his other half action for use later in the round. Next up is 10 and without knowing what A will do, Y continues to hold their action. A simply moves around and readies a weapon. Next is 9 and B already had a weapon readied so Y says they want to act now, stepping in front of X to shield them from a potential attack.

Now this could be handled in several ways but the rules as written to me seem to imply that Y would automatically act now, before B does and that it would count as Y's turn so B could use a reaction. If another character had also delayed and they both decided to act now then they would do an opposed Agility test to see in which order they act, although both would act before B. Any alternative makes the Delay action stronger than Overwatch and removes any use for it.

I hope my example wasn't too confusing and helps shed another opinion on the subject. Or more likely that FFG include it in the errata so we have no need to debate it anymore