So, I noticed that counter attack is no longer a single attack. It is, instead, any attack you want, long as it does not generate additional hits.

So, what kind of fun can be had with this? I've seen a few possible moves already, but what else is there?

All out attack. That +30 nicely negates the penalty for the counter, and hey, if you're countering on your last reaction, the downside is literally not there anymore. A bit devious and underhanded and arguably something for nothing, but I'd probably be okay with this.

Called shot. While the extra penalty is painful, especially without the talents needed to counter it, a stab to the face with no chance to dodge or parry is no small thing.

Grapple's also an option, albeit not a good one. Same with knockdown. Both allow your opponent to resist, which negates Counter attack's biggest strength, which is that they don't. I'd also include Stun, but unless I'm missing something, that combat move is so worthless it's not worth doing at any time, regardless of how you're doing it.

Reverend mort said:

I wouldn't, because it'd create a clearly superior option. Also, because using a brutal attack that forgoes all defensive measures just as you're using your defensive superiority to create an opening doesn't make much sense.

At the very least, I'd have you give up your Reactions the next round.

Morangias said:

It's simple, really. When you attack on your own turn, Standard Attack vs All-Out is a meaningful choice, because one gives you a better chance of hitting at the expense of your precious Reactions. When you use Counterattack, Standard vs All-Out stops being a meaningful choice, because one gives you a better chance of hitting at the expense of nothing. Ergo, either one option is supposed to be flat-out better for Counterattack (doubtful), or this option isn't supposed to work with Counterattack (more likely).

This seems an interseting point so I will chime in.

But first a disclaimer, even though the text indicates an attack, and makes particular mention that it cannot be a lightning or swift attack, I suspect that they mean a single attack, not even a standard attack.

Let the chiming commence.

The Knockdown.

The good: Puts them prone, which could impede the offhand attack (maybe depends on how the timing on TWW is interpreted)
Sets them up for the beatdown.
The bad: Doesn't specify it uses a weapon, so the GM could rule you can't do it, or need to parry with an unarmed attack.
You do need to be stronger. CSMs unnatural strength is pretty pro here.

The Stun.

The good: Indicates a weapon, making the RAW interpretation stronger.
Can stun them for almost abusively long times.
The bad: Very difficult to land including the penalties from counter attacks.
Again requires CSM smash skills to work. (The average roll is 5+S vs T+AP, so humans are about 10 assuming carapace and 40T, which means marines will stun them almost every hit, but CSMs are about 16 out of the box, making them bad targets for this attack.)

The Grapple.

The good: Lock down if your a marine
The bad: Useless if you're not.
Doesn't specify a weapon so RAW/RAI may stop you here.

Stun penalty gets reduced to 0 if you have the Takedown Talent. I also find this obscenely powerful. If you have a (Khorne) Melee Marine you can easily get your strength bonus to ridiculous hights, with the cheap STR scaling (mine has 12 atm I think, without the Mark). Anything but a Marine is in Stun-Lock of Death after one hit.

If All-out Attacks are allowed (which I think they aren't) you could use Hammerblow.

I like the counter-grapple.

Assassin Stike is pretty neet to, if you fight with a pistol (thx +30 point blank)

What I don't get is the advantage of knocking someone to the ground. they just stand up and hit you with a lightning attack...

@Vogue69

The advantage is a few things. +10 to hit for all your friends, and a penalty to your target's dodge. Also, unless they have leap up, the use of a half action prevents them from charging at someone else, or running away really fast. And yeah, Takedown and stun seems disturbingly good at stun-locks of Deaths, the most boring of all fighting moves.

@Wraithstalker

Oh, I suspect they meant a whole lot of things. But at the end of the day, melta-bombs still attach with mango adhesives and nobody can figure out how two-weapon fighting is supposed to work without emailing FFG with a question

So if someone hits you with a Lightning attack with 5 successlevels and you parry with 5 successlevels, do you get 1 counter-attack for each parried attack?

Also what happens if you counter-attack a lightning attack with a knockdown?

vogue69 said:

Lightning attack is one attack that generates several hits, so you get one counter attack. Also, since you resolve the attack before the counter, you would resolve any hits from the lightning attack prior to rolling for the counter attack.

So in the case of knockdown, I'd say you:
1. Roll to parry.
2. Remove hits as per the parry rules.
3. Resolve any remaining hits.
4. Roll for the counter attack.
5. Resolve Knockdown.
6. Point and laugh at downfallen foe.
7. Do a victory dance!

Reverend mort said:

Which reminds me: anyone got an answer on that?

I did, though it was painfully brief and not too clear, alas.

Rules Question:
Hello. Since the game seems to contradict itself a bit, how exactly is two-weapon fighting and swift/lightning attack intended to interact and work? Can you swift or lightning attack with both weapons at once, does this take one or two half actions etc?

FFG Answer:
It takes one half action to make both attacks. Hope this helps!

So my reading is that you do two separately resolved attacks (sucks to be you, parry monsters) for a single half action. Or least that's the intention, god knows if it's very balanced. In short, the two weapon fighting on page 243 seems to be the accurate summary.

Reverend mort said:

That's... actually, that's absolutely insane. Two attacks on a single Half Action? Totally broken.

Morangias said:

That's less of a problem for me, considering it takes a lot of exp to make full use of dual wielding.

Reverend mort said:

hah thats completly batsh!t crazy. 1 Half-Action for TWO lightning-Attacks? Absolutly ridonculous.

even 2 LAs for a full-action would be insane.

good luck fighting a genesteeler

Morangias said:

it takes around 4 play sessions

vogue69 said:

That's still four sessions' worth of exp you're not spending anywhere else, so that's OK in my book.

well it's not like you can't spend any exp for 4 sessions.

but anyway. two lightning attacks for a half-action are way over the top. And I am not even takling about the players. I talk about the enemies.

How is that different from making 2 Full Auto bursts?

Dual wielding shooters has always been "better" than dual wielding Nasty Pointy Things, until now. Removing the massive unwieldy damage dealers from the combo prevents it from going into crazy-land.

With Parry +20 and balanced/defensive weapons and Wall of Steel you should be ably to match the attackers DoS if you are melee orientated.

It's not so much about making two Lightning Attacks/Full Autos per turn, it's more about them both taking just one Half Action. At this point, any form of dual wielding beats any other option fair and square.

Morangias said:

This. I would house rule that you can make two lightning attacks per turn, but each costs you a half action. The same applies to Swift attack. This does not apply to standard attacks, however [for no reason really, just seems right.]

The same rules also apply to shooting attacks.

Again this has always been the case: A Semi or Full Auto Burst was a Full Action (before BC). A Swift or Lightning Attack was a full action. Dual wielding was also a Full Action.

You could happily pump out dual Full Auto Bursts at the same rate as with just one gun. The only thing that has changed, balance wise, is that Melee weapons finally caught up.

Actually, that's not true: with the revamped modifiers to the Attack Action, Full Auto bursts aren't the staple go-to any more, as it grants no to-hit bonuses.

Morangias said:

borithan said:

That's exactly how I rule it in my games as well. Multiple attack with one hand, +1 standard attack witht he other.

I have to say, I'm not sure what to do anymore. On one hand, I've seen insane things done with the new Swift/Lightning Attack actions, and I still shudder at the thought of doing twice that with dual wielding.

On the other hand, going with the official ruling seems more logical from the rules coherence POV (as Darth Smeg pointed out, it was already possible with dual autopistols in previous games, and likely should still be possible), and it makes gifts such as multiple limbs and/or tail actually useful.