Ugh! Last night i defeated the CATC. But, then today, I realized the timing of when I used a very important card last night was wrong and may have effected enough activity in that round that I don't know if I would have won or not. It seems like it is so easy to catch yourself after you make a mistake because so much is going on at once. Does anyone else ever struggle with this? For example, in the midst of the quest phase today, we were so intently keeping track of the questing results, we somehow missed a surge card that when we remembered it was after we had dealt out shadow cards to all of our enemies, (there were quite a few at this point) that we didn't bother going back because we were have way through the enemy attacks and would have had to replay all the shadow cards for like 6 enemies between two of us.

Zjb12 said:

Yes. What seemed like such an easy game at first, we soon found out had a lot of nuances. That's why it is good to have two or more players at a time. There is a lot to keep track of. That's what makes this game great!! I love this game!!

Haha! I know what you mean. I play mainly solo, and so often I mix up phases or forget to do something. I still have a blast though. I love this game too.

Me and my sons love it, but sometimes we wonder, did we win legitimately or not? We are not worried about cheating, it's whether or not we remembered to do everything and in the right order. But, we think we just won CATC as 3 players. We just are not sure about a couple of things, one of which may have changed the outcome. But I think we will take it for now and maybe move on to Rhosgobel which only I have played solo. The decks are going to have to change for this for sure.

There are lot of things to remember, but the main point though is to have fun. Yes, it "cheapens" a victory when you realize that you forgot to apply a rule. Depending on how serious the mistake is, you may just be able to enjoy the victory and tell yourself to remember it next time. For instance, missing just one surge at the end: likely minor, so enjoy your victory. Forgetting that the Nazgul engages when you rescue the prisoner (like I did the first I going back to replay Dol Guldor after doing the full Mirkwood cycle): major goof: go directly to replay, do not savor anything.

No, but then, I'm used to for example playing Arkham Horror solo, running four investigators and still taking all their equipment and all the game's modifiers into account each and every time. Having mastered the caretaker role in Arkham, rest of the games I play have a lot less bookkeeping and such.

Missing a rule or playing a rule wrong is about the worst offense that can happen in my book, but then, I'm a rules lawyer (although mostly in the good sense). Playing by the rules comes first and foremost, winning second, fun somewhere down the line, a long way down the line.

My take on games like these is that there has to be a strict structure in playing or it will disolve into chaos. Therefore, one has to play the games quite rigidly in order to try to ensure that ommissions and errors are avoided. However, I have to disagree with Dams' last point. Games to me are first and formost 'fun', then played 'correctly' and finally about 'winning'. You paid for the game, so enjoy it your way. If playing with others, some agreement on rules must be adhered to. Finally, I still maintain you can enjoy a good 'loss'. Cheers!

Yeah, I still miss something after all these games, but I usually realize it before it's too late to correct it. I agree it's very easy to lose track of something, especially if you aren't used to a card game this complex.
But to be honest, what annoys me more are all the tiny rules loopholes where it's unclear what exactly happens. The FAQs are a great idea, but sometimes add more confusion than clarity.
But somehow, despite all the negative stuff I can point out in this game, I still love it.

Forgetting stuff (quest card ruling, objective card rulings, keywords or timing issues) seems to be part of this game...

Trantor said:

I have same feelings. I see many mistakes and problems of the game and sometimes get angry but i still love it cose is Tolkien world and i love it so much. And i see they(designers) try to listen complain of players and try make it better.

So second cycle will show us where we going but as i can see the encounter cards in second cycle more powerful and that what we need.

Guys (and gals?), lets be honest: most of us wouldnt play this game if it had a generic fantasy theme. The game mechanics of LotR are not great, they are sufficient and have some nice ideas, but from a strategists/maximizer/mind struggle afficionado-view this game doesnt deliver. It's the Tolkien-Theme (which is implemented very thoughtfully and with a love for detail) and the artwork, that makes most of us play LotR LCG.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts! I am a rules guy too, but sometimes it is hard when you are playing and get so into it and then miss or forget something and wonder would that have made a major difference or not. Sometimes we can go back and correct, but other times it is to late because so much has happened. When you are playing with two young hobbits that you are trying to help guide through an intense quest like CATC you have to remember to really keep focused while also trying to keep them focused despite the constant rollercoaster of hope and despair!!!

Shelfwear said:

Hmmm...obviously I can only speak for myself (and a few others in my gaming group), but I could not disagree with you more. LoTR has great mechanics, incredible replayability at a decent cost...and it is fun (most important to me). It plays great solo or with a buddy (and is still fun with 3 or 4 of us). If I want artwork, I could look at the pictures online. A game with a theme that is interesting that is all flash and no substance may get a play due to the theme, but I won't go back to it.

Shelfwear said:

- It's cooperative which means it's of interest to some of my friends who don't care about competitive games.

- It's available in German which is fundamental, otherwise I wouldn't find other players at all.

As an Arkham Horror player, I can tell you that LOTR is quite easy compared to AH, considering all its expansions, which introduced many new concepts and mechanisms. I am the author of a rule reference sheet for AH and can tell you it is not a simple game! However, you can ask all veteran players of AH: despite many cards may seem to have complex interactions, they can be easily solved by strictly following the turn sequence. Precisely defining timing is very important in games having card text interactions, as it helps solving most ambiguities.

Thanksfully, LOTR expansions introduce no or very few rules to the base game. The problem, however, is the ambiguities in the turn sequence in the base game itself. Most of endless debates come from that, e.g. Thalin/Easter Crows or Melendor/Vassal combo effects. Those could be solved easily, like for AH, by precisely defining the turn sequence and the semantic, such as: the rules say player's actions can be played at the end of each sub-phase, but the sequence graphs says "generally", or when a combat is considered as "resolved", why player's combat splits attack strength determination and damage dealing, contrary to enemy combat, where this is uninterrupted, etc. I believe Nate did this for CoC LCG in the latest FAQ. He should do the same for LOTR LCG, especially when the game is at its infancy, making thinks easier.

In addition, I think FFG should modernise its FAQ system. For instance, the latest AH "super" FAQ has been in waiting for three years now! At the age of the internet, FFG should have a wiki to publish rules revisions in a timely manner. What better than a Living FAQ for a Living Card Game?

The game has a lot of tricky rules, tricky as they are so badly defined. Also there is a number of turn sequence rules that are modified by card rules, so it is very easy to miss say, not being able to draw cards that round as your traveled location now says you can't.

This can be furctrating to new players, I know it was to me. I think it took me about 5 or 6 play thoughs before I played Escape with zero rule errors. And that is just what you have to do, learn the game, keep playing have fun and then play again. After a bit you will start to have flawless games.

Then cool thing is that once you learn the base rules correctly they do not get modified so once that is down it is sweet, the hard thing is remembering everything that is modifying everything every turn. Personally I use glass counters to mark a cards that have ongoing effects. Also we have a house rule that all cards need to be compleatly read when placed on the table. If there is a doom or surge or other such affect, on goes the glass counter till it is done with. This isn't as tedious as it sounds, infact it really pushes the theme and vibe of the game imo. Once you get good you do not need this crutch, but I would recommend this to new and even mid level players

This is one of the reasons I do not care about the quest log. I would bet that the majority of those records are from people that are playing incorrectly.

zeb said:

Everything this guy said +1

I mainly have problems when I have a plan for a crucial stage of the game, making me rush ahead and forgetting about raising threat, drawing a card etc.

Other than that, I think the game's mechanics, timings and rules are fairly straightforward. But that's because I used to avidly play the grand emperor of all games, MECCG...which was so complex that by the end it simply vanished in a puff of confusion.

Just be thankful, really thankful, that LOTR:LCG does not have chains of effects, where you can respond to actions with actions of your own etc. etc. etc. until it stops and everything resolves backwards.

What really helps is keeping a log of your game. It slows things down, but that in itself means you're less likely to forget things and more likely to come up with the best tactic for the situation you find yourself in.

I definately think a visual aid for the turn sequence smooths out game play, given the number of distint phases, the multiplayer co-operations and discussion element, and cards with abiltities that operate outside of phase it is easy enough to lose track. The inclusion of a turn phase summary is surprizing absent as a printed card in the core (starter) set.

A turn phase indicater can easily be cobbled together I'm sure.

For timing and resolutions its a certainly great completment to the game that the theme and tension can overwhelm the relatively intricate game mechanics, but Im sure with ever more play and experience both of these aspects can only meld more.

A small habit I have got into when playing solo with distrations around it to place my threat counter ontop of my deck, ie I am not able to draw a card for the next turn without adding the end of turn threat. o.0

zeb said:

As you mentioned, the latest CoC FAQ included one (though I suppose it was compiled/edited by Damon Stone), so there's hope we'll see a better one in LotR eventually, too.

Oh, and Happy Birthday Zeb!

jhaelen said:

Wow, many thanks! That little cake icon is very useful

I forget my stuff all the time. Traveling is the worsed. I always come out of questing and go like Yeah lets kill ****. End of turn I realize that I didnt travel to a new location. Meh.

However, keep in mind that not forgetting things is a huge part of TCGs in general. The problem with LotR though is that most of the time, if you forget something, you get an advantage.

Sometimes I reveal cards from encounter deck and forget to calculate difference between willpower and threat. Just start traveling and engaging. And than remember it and return to calculating.

Also I can forget that I must discard defeated crowns to encounter deck, just discard them to discard pile.