Text:
Military Battle During challenges, total attacking STR is determined by counting the number of participating attackers and total defending STR is determined by counting the number of participating defenders.

Just to clarify : when this plot is revealed, multiplayer Titles +3 STR bonuses to the total STR still apply, so does The Shadow Tower ability, right?

Bolzano said:

When in doubt, take the card literally. "Total attacking STR". "Total defending STR". TOTAL is the number you arrive at when you are done adding. That means no bonuses.

It's not that obvious, because the rules for the other cards also use the word "total". Which means you have an equally valid case in either situation for which effects apply first.

For instance, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard says "If you choose this title, you add 3 to your side’s total STR in any @ challenge in which you have at least one participating character." Shadow Tower says "Kneel The Shadow Tower to add 2 to your total STR". From these cards we know you can "Add" to a total (making a new total).

If we assume that the plot only affects "determine winner" step of challenges (the only time where "Total" is actually meaningful, but still quite an assumption), an active ability (like Shadow Tower) would be negated (as it would have to be triggered beforehand). A constant effect, like Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, would probably fall under the "first player resolves conflicting simultaneous effects"; which "Total" comes first.

I'd really like a Ktom on this one...

I'd say that adding in the +3 "general" bonus from the Titles, or the +2 from something like Shadow Tower, into the total challenge STR after that STR is counted and determined doesn't fit with the way things are usually calculated in this game. So I don't think the argument of adding in modifiers after character STR is used to determine challenge STR is the right reasoning. Even if you did, everything else in the game would say you start from scratch when adding in the modifier - not that the modifier were added to the end total.

However, that doesn't really answer the larger question of whether the plot allows non-character factors to be added into the total challenge STR count. Essentially, Grand Melee could go one of two ways:

1. With Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, military total challenge STR = 1 (character #1) + 1 (character #2) + 3 (title) = 5; or
2. With Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, military total challenge STR = 1 (character #1) + 1 (character #2) + 0 (disallowed title) = 2

Personally, I think #1 is more correct. The plot only changes how characters contribute to total challenge STR. The plot does not say, or even really imply, that "total challenge STR" cannot be modified by effects that do so directly. Effectively, the plot replaces the rule that says "total attacking STR is determined by adding up the total STR of all participating attacking characters" (which would also disallow general, non-character based challenge STR modifiers if taken to mean this is the only factor in figuring out total challenge STR).

You may want to send it to FFG to be sure, though.

ktom said:

I have a question regarding this formulation. The plot doesn't say "each participating character counts for 1 STR", it says that total STR value is calculated by number of attackers/defenders. I assume this means that you couldn't make a character's strength not count using Scouting Vessel, because the character itself is committing no STR to the challenge.

Circadia said:

Circadia said:

Regardless of what the individual character STR is or what other effects are there saying how its STR would be counted in determining challenge STR, the plot says its presence is all that matters, and a 1-STR, Scouting Vessel-ed defender is just as present as an 8-STR Army.

It may be worth having a look at the arguments made in the comments on agotcards.org on this plot.

http://www.agotcards.org/card/v/4312

The core rules state that total attacking and defending strength is determined by adding up the total strength of the participating attacking and defending characters in the challenge. It doesn't state that total strength modifiers applied count toward that amount, which leads me to believe that modifiers given by Titles and the Shadow Tower should still be allowed to apply with this plot.

Bomb said:

Here's the thing:

Normally, what you are faced with is: "Total attacking STR = Total character STR of attacking characters." That's what the rules say, right? This is the same thing as "Total attacking STR = Total character STR (attacker #1) + Total character STR (attacker #2) + etc." In fact, that is the better way to think of it because if a character's STR is less than 0, it is rounded up to 0 for its total character STR. Now, when you have a +3 Title or Shadow Tower or whatever, that calculation becomes "Total attacking STR = Total character STR (attacker #1) + Total character STR (attacker #2) + etc. + 3 (title contribution)."

The modifier to the total challenge STR is added in as part of the calculation of the total STR, just like every other modifier in the game is added into the factor's calculation . It's not like you come up with a character's total STR by determining it's base STR, stopping the calculation, then starting a new calculation with all the modifiers. You technically are doing just one calculation - rules definition PLUS applicable modifiers.

So, it is simply incorrect methodology to say "you add up the total character STR to get the total challenge STR, then add in any modifiers." That's not the way the game works.

HOWEVER , that does not mean the plot prevents the application of challenge STR modifiers!! In fact, the plot is effectively worded the exact same way the rules are for determining the total attacking/defending STR. Either the modifiers apply to both, or they apply to neither! With the plot, you are face with: "Total attacking STR = Total number of attacking characters." Following that through, this is the same (and potentially better defined) as saying "Total attacking STR = Presence of attacking character (attacker #1) + Presence of attacking character (attacker #2) + etc." So why, when you have modifiers to the total attacking STR, would that not create the parallel situation of "Total attacking STR = Presence of attacking character (attacker #1) + Presence of attacking character (attacker #2) + etc. + 3 (title contribution)"?

So, don't get caught up in the technical discussion of the methodology for how and when modifiers are added in. The thing to remember is that, like any other calculation, they are added in as part of the standard calculation. It doesn't MATTER how the other terms in that calculation are determined (totalling the character's effective STR or simply noting it is there), if it counts normally to modify total character STR outside of modifying a the STR of an individual character, it counts under the plot as well.

I think I am confused by your post as to whether or not you agree with what I had said. I think you are disagreeing. If you are disagreeing then...

I tried to argue the same thing per the link to the comments of that plot, however it was countered several times by other members that the Core Rules definition of Total Attacking/Defending STR is the total STR produced by the participating characters on each respective side. Without looking at the core set rules and using common sense, Total Attacking/Defending STR should be the final amount, which would include any of the challenge STR modifiers(Titles or Shadow Tower). However, the core set rules don't define that as including challenge modifiers(which I think it would generally include).

Since this game has and has to have strict game term definitions, naturally players take each game term defined as literal as possible. If the core set rules said Total Attacking/Defending STR included challenge modifiers, then it wouldn't be up a question. The plot has this text on purpose, which leads me to believe it would use what is defined in the core set rules. If they intended to keep the titles(for example) out of the equation, I would hope they'd pick terminology that was not specifically defined yet.

The plot really does need clarity because Title use makes a big difference. Shadow Tower has limited use, but you could build your deck to use it with this plot for sure.

This is what makes this game a lot of fun!

[/grumbling]Weird, I remember posting a very similar question recently and not getting any reply...[/grumbling]

Bomb said:

So... When I said "The plot does not say, or even imply, that 'Total challenge STR' cannot be modified by effects that do so directly" and "HOWEVER, that does not mean the plot prevents the application of challenge STR modifiers!!", you thought I was disagreeing with you when you said "which leads me to believe that modifiers given by Titles and the Shadow Tower should still be allowed to apply with this plot"?

Aren't "does not prevent" and "still be allowed" the same thing?

Bomb said:

The text that allows the modification of total attacking/defending STR directly comes from the cards (Titles, Shadow Tower, etc.), not the rules for calculating challenge STR. Since the plot is worded the same as the rules for calculating challenge STR (substituting the fact that the character is participating for its actual STR), the modifier cards therefore either apply to both, or neither.

The "defense" of the position that total challenge STR modifiers still apply does not come in the form of "you get total challenge STR by adding up the character STR, then in a whole other calculation, you add in modifiers like the titles." It comes from the fact that since the plot doesn't specifically say total challenge STR cannot be modified, it CAN be modified by a card that says it can.

Bomb said:

The plot doesn't need clarity. People need to stop trying to find loopholes that don't exist and thinking cards say things they don't.

PS - I just posted something on agotcards to back you up. SInce neither the rules nor the plot specifically contradicts the Titles, you either add the modifiers in when you are using the plot -- or don't add them in at all under "normal" circumstances.

Khudzlin said:

It wasn't a personal slight. Most likely.

ktom said:

It was in a brand new topic on this very board (called Titles and plot The Grand Melee). Digging into the board (it is now on the 6th page as I posted it on 11/11 - no ambiguity on that date ), it appears there was a board malfunction and the post is blank (I don't remember whether I posted it from a computer or my phone).

I never really thought it was a personal slight, not from the people here, anyway (but from the board, certainly, given it isn't the first time I get the white screen of death).

Khudzlin said:

~Dude, you are infamous for the White Screen of Death!

ktom,

OK I get what you are saying then. Thanks for posting on agotcards.org to help clear it up.

Total attacking/defending STR is normally the STR of all participating characters + modifiers.

This plot says total attacking/defending STR is ONLY the # of characters participating on their respective side. This STR cannot be modified unless there is some future card that explicitly modifies or manipulates the number of characters participating. Could be some kind of an illusion or mirage type of card. :-) That would be an infrequently used one I'm sure.. Haha.

This is of course what I will presume to be the proper use of this plot unless someone wishes to clarify with FFG.

Bomb said:

Um... That's not what I'm saying. I'm not sure you are reading me correctly here. And you seem to have reversed yourself here, saying now that the Titles do NOT apply with the plot.

What I'm saying is:

1. Total attacking/defending STR is normally the combined STR of all attacking/defending characters.
2. There are card effects (like the Titles) that, when applied, say Total attacking/defending STR is the combined STR of all attacking/defending characters + modifiers imposed by "this" card.
3. The plot says total attacking/defending STR is the combined number of attacking/defending characters.
4. Those SAME card effects (like the Titles), when applied in combination with the plot, say Total attacking/defending STR is the combined number of attacking/defending characters + modifiers imposed by "this" card.

The thing to recognize is that the Titles modify Total attacking/defending STR directly, so no matter how you calculate the contribution from the participating characters, the modifiers apply. Because the modifying cards SAY they apply. The Titles do not "explicity modify or manipulate the STR of the characters participating" in the normal circumstances, so I'm not sure why you'd say we need "some future card that explicity modifies or manipulates the number of characters participating" in order to modify the total challenge STR from the plot.

The only thing the plot changes is each character's contribution to the total challenge STR, not the overall process for calculating total challenge STR.

The Titles do add their +3 to the total challenge STR, even when the plot is active. I can't be much more specific than that.

Here it is algebraically for those who are so inclined:

Under normal circumstances; Total STR = X : where X = STR (char 1) + STR (char 2) + etc.

When a Title is applied, it adds a factor and; Total STR = X + Y : where X = STR (char 1) + STR (char 2) + etc., and Y = 3

Under the plot; Total STR = X : where X = 1 (char 1) + 1 (char 2) + etc.

When a Title is applied to the plot, it addes a factor and; Total STR = X + Y : where X = 1 (char 1) + 1 (char 2) + etc., and Y = 3

Therefore, the plot only changes how you figure out X. It does not change whether or not Y is applicable or how Y is factored in.

Again: Titles do add their +3 to the total STR calculated with the plot.

ktom,

Honestly I couldn't figure out if you were agreeing with me or not. Apparently you were agreeing with me.

My comment on future cards was only if Titles did not apply with this plot.

for future applications are there key "terms" we can look out for so we know when a card is referring to "total strength", X or in the unlikely case Y?