Siranui said:

perhaps not standard marines, but again space wolves... That said i also dont agree with any time table that gives them 15 minutes personal time, its not realistic. you can only drill so hard, so long before its pointless and wears down the morale of even the most elite soldier in existance. I would agree to a training regime far beyond a humans capablities but SM's tend to do everything turned up to 11, so really they could do something that would out right kill you in a day to do in the time it takes a world class athlete to run a mile.

ive read a lot of the WH40k fiction, never once have i seen that the parts dont work, however i have seen that they just dont use them as they are above the concerns of basic human life. also one of the major factors that some authors use to create further seperation between humanity and marines is that some chapters are disgusted to protect humanity but do so becuase they are honor bound regardless of their opinion that were too weak to be worth protecting.

IMO, this is a QOL argument that GW WILL NEVER TRULY WEIGH IN ON. why? becuase to do so would force even more down the throats of people who buy their product and are happy with the image in their own head they have for marines and to do so could possibly break their image and lose a consumer.

Siranui said:

perhaps not standard marines, but again space wolves... That said i also dont agree with any time table that gives them 15 minutes personal time, its not realistic. you can only drill so hard, so long before its pointless and wears down the morale of even the most elite soldier in existance. I would agree to a training regime far beyond a humans capablities but SM's tend to do everything turned up to 11, so really they could do something that would out right kill you in a day to do in the time it takes a world class athlete to run a mile.

ive read a lot of the WH40k fiction, never once have i seen that the parts dont work, however i have seen that they just dont use them as they are above the concerns of basic human life. also one of the major factors that some authors use to create further seperation between humanity and marines is that some chapters are disgusted to protect humanity but do so becuase they are honor bound regardless of their opinion that were too weak to be worth protecting.

IMO, this is a QOL argument that GW WILL NEVER TRULY WEIGH IN ON. why? becuase to do so would force even more down the throats of people who buy their product and are happy with the image in their own head they have for marines and to do so could possibly break their image and lose a consumer.

Siranui said:

perhaps not standard marines, but again space wolves... That said i also dont agree with any time table that gives them 15 minutes personal time, its not realistic. you can only drill so hard, so long before its pointless and wears down the morale of even the most elite soldier in existance. I would agree to a training regime far beyond a humans capablities but SM's tend to do everything turned up to 11, so really they could do something that would out right kill you in a day to do in the time it takes a world class athlete to run a mile.

ive read a lot of the WH40k fiction, never once have i seen that the parts dont work, however i have seen that they just dont use them as they are above the concerns of basic human life. also one of the major factors that some authors use to create further seperation between humanity and marines is that some chapters are disgusted to protect humanity but do so becuase they are honor bound regardless of their opinion that were too weak to be worth protecting.

IMO, this is a QOL argument that GW WILL NEVER TRULY WEIGH IN ON. why? becuase to do so would force even more down the throats of people who buy their product and are happy with the image in their own head they have for marines and to do so could possibly break their image and lose a consumer.

Cutting back briefly... where in the Ragnar books is this 'falls in love with...' thing? Because I've chatted to a few people who have read the book and they all said "W.T.F?!!!!"

The off note about Lukas the Trickster bedding a dozen women in a single night is before he became a Space Marine. At least that's how I read the passage. I don't claim to have read everythign about Space Marines, but what I have erad doesn't mention a thing abotu them bedding anyone or even talking about sex in an even joking fashion which typical warriors usually will. One might say its part of most soldiers chemistry, but I think its becuase most are young men in their 20's.

Siranui said:

Love is a strong word, but 'feelings,' sexual or romantc. Ragnar's Claw:

He was not dead. He was not Like a message of confirmation sent by Russ, Karah Isaan's beautiful brown face came into view above him. He felt more than relief at seeing it. He felt a surge of something else, something he could not quite put his finger on, something he had not felt since Ana had been lost, something that really should have been impossible for him to feel as a Space Marine.

Then again in Grey Hunter:

He realised that some of these youthshad never been off-planet before. Casting his mind back, he managed a surge of sympathy for them. He recalled hisown first voyage into space in the company of Sven, Strybjorn, Hakon, Nils and Lars. An unaccountable sadnessfilled him when he thought of his dead companions and the dead inquisitors who had accompanied them,particularly Karah Isaan, for whom he had felt an un-Space Wolfish fondness.

Of course it's all innuendo and implication, as all of this really is; which might be why the conversation generally devolves into "I'm right and you're wrong" .

So it's simply a degree of empathy and affection for a non-Astartes, rather than love, as some has said. Riiiiight.

For additional background, Ana was the girl Ragnar got familiar with before becoming a Marine, and she got drug off and killed supposedly. He also uses the feelings he had for Ana to deny some Slaanesh daemon or some such later that's trying to seduce him (again, I think before he's a Marine).

So for him to feel "something he had not felt since Ana had been lost" indicates either love or sexual desire to me. Simple affection would've been more brotherly/sisterly, which I'd imagine wouldn't be particularly un-Space Wolfish.

RPG not reality.... so WHAT EVER rock your MARINE epeen!

Charmander said:

These are all vague feelings, like a poignant recollection of childhood, or the sight of seeing something we loved in childhood.

Psycho-conditioning isn't 100% perfect, I'm sure some stuff slips through. A great place for Chaos to get a foothold, actually...

I don't think it's the kind of thing an Astartes would let other people know about though (it is un-Space Wolfish, and should have been impossible). Embarassing at the very least, like admitting you still sleep with a teddy bear.

Okay I am going to simplify all of this as best as I can having had to deal with this issue with certain members of my group and our human DH players. Space Wolves and certain other homebrew chapters (ie angry marines) do have sex drives and but CAN'T reproduce with any human or otherwise (it can be argued that it is possible with an eldar but not getting into that).

Marines are taken at the age range of 12-15 and hypo-indoctronated to think that they are king **** and that killing is the best thing since beating a cultist to death with its own arms. Sex drive isn't an issue with most loyalist marines it just does not exist. Also I would like to state that when marines go through the excelerated growth afer the majority of the implants are installed in them they increase in size by a large percentage.

I can't speak for a woman seeing how I'm a male but would you lay around long enough for something the size of a normal male forearm to be inserted into you? I wouldn't think so. Also as far as the Wolves go they could be talking about past life events but who really knows what those space vikings do in their off time.

By and large marines don't have the time to lay around with women or otherwise considering a normal day is as follows:

Wake up, combat training, pray, more combat training, eat, maintinance on armor/weapons, combat training, meal, pray, sleep, go fight war next day.

The emperor made weapons. Marines fight and die (Except space wolves they wench too). There is some material out there saying that marines can't perform in that arena and once I find it again I will be happy to post it.

On a semi-serious note, I present the following.

(Style is reminiscent of a 1950’s PSA, with Perry Como’s Magic Moments playing softly in the background)

Greetings, citizen!
Whether by accident or intent, you have just broached-upon one of the most controversial and inflammatory topics in our community: the Sexuality of Space Marines.
The ensuing discussion is likely to be heated and passionate. You can expect at least to see the following:
1) Debate over a “casual pass” and its implications (Codex Space Wolves).
2) Was Lukas the Trickster’s legendary prowess in bed pre- or post- ascension?
3) Family and its role in the life of a Salamander.
4) Whether or not the genetic modifications of a marine render him impotent and/or sterile.
5) Large amounts of conjecture regarding how the sexuality of a marine fits into the larger 40k universe.
6) Increasingly vicious personal attacks made by both sides of the debate (questioning one’s maturity is a popular choice)
7) The dialogue is likely to end on a sour and unresolved, note, with both sides remaining convinced of their own position.

Caution:

As the discussion rages on, there is an ever-increasing likelihood that another, equally provocative topic will be mentioned: Female Marines: Could/Should/Would They Exist?

Have a nice day, and remember: you have been warned.

I encourage people to post this as a response whenever someone raises this topic.

A following is a little exchange between Captain Remus Ventanus of Ultramarines and Magos Analyticae Meer Edv Tawrin from novel Know No Fear: And for a note: The same writers other books set in 40K universum have featured sexually loaded scenes and even homosexual relationships so it is not as if he made a conscious choice not to include sexual thematics into his novels. Instead he made a conscious choice to introduce this:

'You were close,' notes Ventanus.

'Yes,' she replies. 'He was, I suppose, my husband. My life partner. The Mechanicum does not think in such old-fashioned terms, and our social connections are more subtle. But yes, captain, we were close. A binary form. I miss him. I do this for him."

The lift shutters open. For a second, Ventanus envies her loss. However approximate to standard human her relationship with Hesst might have been, it was still something. An analogue.

He is transhuman. He knows no fear, and there are many other simple emotions he will similarly never experience.

I think that is pretty much as clear as it can get: Marines do not, and cannot, feel love the way standard human relationships go. They know that they cannot feel it. And sometimes, just for a little while, they feel they are missing out on something.

I guess my point is this: Space Marines are not, and will never be, human. They are, by definition, transhuman and what the can and cannot feel does not operate, and cannot be measured, by human spectrum of emotions. They certainly have feelings and they have drives, but the way these operate are so far from human equivalents that they are completely incomprehensible to humans.

Course, we just had another long thread about how tech priests have no emotions and so don't marry...

--

Surely the game has been out long enough that people have got some idea of how difficult it is to make Marines in to interesting characters?

AluminiumWolf said:

I don't see why having a sex drive makes you more interesting.

bogi_khaosa said:

Well, do you agree that it is difficult to run an all Marine game because of how dull the characters are?

Look, this forum doesn't get much traffic, and I can't help but feel that is because of the games failure to rise above a line of combat scenes. There just... isn't a lot to do in Deathwatch other than kill things.

NECRO

But aside from that, I think that getting Marines to bump uglies with people is a terrible idea. Space Marines, even if they were "equipped" for such a thing, and I for one don't think they are or should be, don't have the time for it. Almost every moment they don't spend in battle is spent praying or training. It also messes with the theme. I don't want to imagine warrior monks staring at the behinds of every female they run into. It conflicts horribly with what they're supposed to be.

Additionally, if you can't make your Space Marine character interesting unless he can have sex, well, suffice it to say you're doing it wrong. If you're really hellbent on characters capable of such relationships, then I'd suggest checking out Fantasy Flight's other RPG's (including, unfortunately, Black Crusade *shudder*).

AluminiumWolf said:

I kind of agree that Deathwatch gets bogged down into being about killing stuff but I'm not sure that the addition of banging chicks is going to give the game more dimension or make the characters less dull. I don't know for sure what the exact solution to this problem is but I'm not convinced its the sexual angle that's missing. I mean Vampires can't get laid (for real but they can pretend) either but both Masquerade and Requiem had and has a, as far as I can tell, huge following.

Fabian Grax said:

I kind of agrees with this.

Fabian Grax said:

That part about Black Crusade are fighting words...

What I think is that maybe on idea is to make sure that the characters gets other missions than just killing stuff and perhaps, if possible, allow things with the outside world develop beyond sheer formality and perhaps downplay the formal hierarchy of the Deathwatch a little. Just some ideas throw out.

+++++I mean Vampires can't get laid (for real but they can pretend) either but both Masquerade and Requiem had and has a, as far as I can tell, huge following.+++++

No one I know paid any attention to that.

And vampires from Buffy through True Blood to Twilight all have sex. Vampire sex is Pretty Big.

+++++I'm not sure that the addition of banging chicks is going to give the game more dimension or make the characters less dull.+++++

Anything that moves Marine roleplaying away from drooling slightly unless you are killing something has to be worth doing.

Basically, I read:-

+++++For a second, Ventanus envies her loss. However approximate to standard human her relationship with Hesst might have been, it was still something. An analogue.

He is transhuman. He knows no fear, and there are many other simple emotions he will similarly never experience.+++++

And I hear

AluminiumWolf said:

AluminiumWolf said:

Why would the Marines be neutral from these things? What do you mean with neutral because the stuff you are talking about now don't have much connection to my understanding of being "neutral". And Imperial Space Marines are probably among the least neutral guys in the freaking galaxy.

+++++First we give them sex slaves/concubines/installs a brotel in the Fortress-Monestary/Watch Fortress (please note "Monestary") and then we take the Land Raider as a *****-magnet and go to town?+++++

Well, I think that is more fun that four dudes standing there feeling slightly sad that they will never truely feel. Again and again.

There are only so many times you can watch a single tear roll down someones cheek...

+++++And Imperial Space Marines are probably among the least neutral guys in the freaking galaxy+++++

But, given that they only seem to have strong opinions about hating the enemies of the emperor, they are likely to come off as Neutral unless you try real hard.

"If I don't come back, tell my wife....hello."

I must confess to not really understanding the PoV that sexuality is integral to prevent marines from being "boring." In my experience, players can and will make interesting or dull characters regardless of how "open" or "limiting" the system or setting is. While it is true that all marines have a similar base to work from, they are, ultimately, still individuals with their own hopes, dreams and aspirations.

Part of the problem is that when the difference between characters is that one feels enemies should be crushed and then smited, while another thinks they should be smited and then crushed there just isn't a lot to work with.