Wouldn't it be more proper to curse the Ultramarines' Primarch for coming up with that bull Codex that spoiled the fun? Anyway I would think that the Salamanders, after what's writen about them in the First Founding, would be as likely to potentially sire offspring as the Space Wolves. Anyway Duke Nukem in 40k don't sound like a Space Marine to me, but rather more like a Rogue Trader and thus that's where I would place the typer of characters that certain posters seem itchy to play.

By the way Pallomides and Alminumwolf, you've ever played Rogue Trader? Because it seems to me that those guys can kick some serious ass and do much of what you want your Space Marines to do, and it would be entirely fitting to make such characters, as far as I can tell, for that settiing. Don't mean of course that you shouldn't be playing Deathwatch, but I thought that I should bring up the idea and see what you think of it - rather than only adding to the present exchange of replies, which I don't think will really accomplish much.

Pallomides said:

What's mature about it? Inherently, nothing. Inherently, there's nothing mature about any roleplaying game. Any game can be taken as seriously as you want.

It's just that there is great potential for me in stories about duty, honor, loyalty and glory, and not so much potential in murdering Xenos and bedding wenches for ***** and giggles. Ironically (that is, from your perspective), Deathwatch is the only 40k RPG I can and want to take seriously. And that's exactly because it's potential for over-the-topness makes all exercises in powergaming pointless and dull to me.

Jesus Christ.

I'm sorry I started this.

It's like a train wreck...and I just can't look away.

I think, as someone kind of in the middle, I'm being insulted by both of the sides here.

My purpose in asking was an attempt to further humanize a marine. I'm not looking for some sort of sexual-fetish-Captain-Kirk-Alien-screwfest. I'm not looking to put an imaginary wang anywhere.

I'm also not interested in angry robots or lobotomized super-soldiers mowing down millions of lesser beings with a mini-gun that shoots flaming vorpal swords. I'm not interested in playing a game featuring someone who spends every waking hour training, waring, or studying about training or waring.

However, I find it difficult to divorce romantic themes (or even the hint of temptation) from the heroic warrior story arc. I mean, I keep coming back to the part where space marines have fallen to chaos because of an addiction to music. Great music (or virtually any other type of human sensation) can make a marine betray everything and knowling join with chaos...except for sex.

However, to the violently "no-sex" camp...if marines are 100% asexual, why are there no female marines? Why is "male" so important at all?

If you're going to make a soldier, taken from pre-pubesencent children and genetically/surgically alter them to turn them into brain washed, honor-bound, asexual killing machines...why not let either gender join up? The end product shouldn't be too much different (their different withered, vestigial sex organs non-withstanding).

Why are there no female Space Marines?

So, we're going straight from one trainwreck to another here? Fine by me.

Why, you ask? Because the Emperor is male, and he made both Primarchs and Space Marines directly from his superhuman genetics. Also, because he's a sexist prick.

Any more questions?

Ok. So, they're male because they're made in the Emperor's image out of the Emperor's DNA.

But, as it seem to be agreed upon in this very thread, the Emperor was not asexual, no?

It seems incongruous to me.

If the marines are asexual...make them asexual and be done with it: Whatever makes you a marine also makes you genderless.

jbuck said:

He was male, but he wasn't exactly human, so this really tells us nothing.

jbuck said:

I wouldn't worry about it. Some people are just always looking for a fight.

<cough>

--

I think everybody broadly accepts that it would be profoundly stupid for GW to come out and say Marines all sing castrato:-

Canon much of your audience wouldn't like, and that as a result you can never whisper let alone do anything with would be stupid canon.

Threads like this one ought to demonstrate that there is a desire to see Marines intact and functional.

I love how you keep conflating "genetically and psychologically rewired to neither have nor need sex, as befits an Angel of Death" with "had his balls chopped off, with all the debilitating effects it has on a real man".

You might as well start posting movies about neutered housecats, they're just as relevant to the discussion.

Morangias said:

I remain unconvinced that people are sufficiently charitable to make that distinction.

Actually by most accounts the Emperor was more human then night, a psyker of unprecedented power who by some quirk or another was immortal and having knowledge and wisdom of his past lives. In most other respects he's held out to be human.

In any case Jbuck i think your very close to the money, there are going to be the grognards who can't mentally work marines out as anything but someone who spends their entire waking day either fighting or preparing to fight in some manner. I don't agree with it and I blame the Black Templars and the Grey Knights (who once again ARE NOT a typical space marine chapter, part of the reason their kept secret is many of the other chapters would likely go apeshit if they heard about them).

I see your average space marine as a man with a deep seated warrior ethos and dedication to honor. He sees the emperor not as a god but a wise but flawed father figure who struggled so often to do what was right by humanity. He sees a solemn duty to protect humanity and ensure it can claim it's rightful place in the empire. In short he sees himself and guaranteeing his spiritual father and grandfathers legacy but I also think he's colored by starting out human. I also believe given the characterization of the emperor that he wouldn't have changed all that if he could.

A space marine knows that his purpose is battle and war but he doesn't loose sight of why he has that purpose. I think he knows that a normal life (including a normal romantic or sex life) is closed off to him, especially when he morphs into a 700 pound 7 foot tall monster. That's not to say he wouldn't want them or might try and explore them if the circumstances were right and they didn't endanger his duty.

Morangias is entitled to run things his way, AliuminumWolf like wise, i just don't get the moral superiority they get from it but I suppose some people always need a reason to feel smug on the internet, myself included. Now if everyone will excuse me I'm going back to my GM notes.

...you know what, nevermind. This thread has long since turned into a stupid back and forth, and there's no sense to continue.

I apologize everyone for my part in this trainwreck, I was having a really stressful week and it seems I started using this thread as a convenient punching bag. I stand by my opinions, on all matters discussed, but obviously I'm not forcing anyone to share them.

Peace, everyone.

lurkeroutthere said:

They kinda do, though; by canon. There's a space marine 'daily routine' that was listed in a pre-issue-100 WD that gives each Marine 15 minutes 'personal time' per day. In the world of elite athletics, you don't get to be the best by electing to miss your 5am gym session; in the world of elite soldiers, you don't get to be the best by sitting around drinking and wenching. Look at the ridiculous hours people who work on the stock markets pull... and they're not even the best in the galaxy! When you need to be the best in the galaxy, that doesn't leave much time for anything else. Yes: It's sort of one dimensional, but that's almost the point of playing and exploring the character: Exploring their personality within that dimension and niche. I believe that playing a Marine as a normal Joe who just happens to be an uber killing machine is rather missing out on a fantastic roleplay oppertunity to play something that is obstinately part of the Empire of Man, but who is no longer truly human.

Divorcing the romance from the warrior saga isn't too tricky. Firstly, it's often a poor theme for an RPG anyway, as friends do not want to sit around and watch their friends try to seduce imaginary women. Because it's a personal storyline rather than a group one, running romance based story-lines can result in one or two players taking up a lot of GM time. The romance in warrior-sagas is often tacked on anyway. It's 'oh yeah, and to prove the hero is also hetrosexual and virile, we'll sing a bit where he seduces a dozen women in a night'. Finally... well, I covered it above in the 'roleplaying something that's not a human' bit.

As to 'why no woman marines': That's not really very valid as part of the debate, as it's firmly established in canon. You wouldn't run a star wars game where the Jedi use ninja stars instead of lightsabres, would you? The geneseed is stated to be specifically tailored to only work with male genetics.

Siranui said:

Those are two bits that are very easy to ignore if desired. The old piece that states that Astartes only have 15 minutes a day to themselves is basically a throw-away passage for a minis game that really isn't worthy of attention these days in a roleplaying game - at least no more than the original RT passages about SMs. The part about Astartes only being males is much more pervasive, but it certainly doesn't hurt the game at all if you elect to retcon the universe to allow for female Astartes. The fact that it gets some people so worked up is actually pretty funny to me.

Wasn't the 'timetable' republished somewhere very recently? I seem to remember seeing it. Which indicates to me that it's still relevant.

The timetables of monks didn't leave much room for sitting around with girls on their laps, and nor does the training program for today's special forces. Given that marine existence is a melding of the two, I don't think that they finish work at 5pm and go for a beer.

Siranui said:

Like I say though, monks actually had a surprising amount of nookie*, and from reading SAS mens memoirs it seems to be a common theme that they will have been married and divorced several times with a string of children from each relationship.

* http://www.bangkokpost.com/blogs/index.php/2009/01/30/sex-in-the-monastery?blog=64 <still do

+++++We used to be shocked by sex scandals in the clergy. Given the endless stream of those wrongdoings, we no longer are. Heterosex has also become old news. The rage now is about gay and paedophile monks.

The latest scandal involved an abbot in Nakhon Si Thammarat. His lover accused him of being unfaithful after finding out that the abbot had invited a group of teenagers to drink and party at his quarters. The last straw was reportedly the taint of semen on the abbot's mattress.

Their quarrel turned violent. The jilted lover, after being beaten up, reported the matter to the police. The abbot fled and quit the monkhood to avoid arrest and forced disrobement.+++++

Not to mention:-

+++++In early feudal times, the marriage day might have ended differently, with the feudal lord deflowering the new bride, before releasing her to her husband. The existence of this 'jus primae noctis, also known in France as "jus cunni", in England as "marchette", in Piedmont as "cazzagio", has been much disputed, but Ducange has provided detailed evidence and the best authorities now accept that it existed; cases are even known where monks, being at the same time feudal lords, held this right - for instance the monks of St. Thiodard enjoyed this right over the inhabitants of Mount Auriol.+++++

(honestly, probably not true, but even badly reported history is fair game for 40k)

+++++Naturally, persons vowed to total celibacy exhibit the earmarks of sexual repression more vividly than laymen: not only inversion but perversion and hysterical symptoms are found in the monasteries and cloisters in very marked forms, as also among the practising clergy as soon as the rule of celibacy was enforced. Perhaps it is not generally realized how strongly the clergy opposed the imposition of priestly celibacy. It is true that it was an age of violence - an age in which, for instances Archembald, Bishop of Sens, taking a fancy to the abbey of St. Peter, could simply evict the monks and install himself, establishing his harem in the refectory-but, even so, the scale of the clerical revolt against celibacy was remarkable. Monks repeatedly murdered their abbots for preaching better behaviour to them; priests left their benefices to their sons, as if they were private property, openly defying the rule. In 925, for instance, we find the Council of Spalato forbidding priests to marry for a second time, having apparently become resigned to first marriages. In 1061 these protests culminated in an organized rebellion: a number of Lombard bishops and Roman nobles, claiming that it was no sin for a priest to marry, elected Cadalus, Bishop of Parma, as Antipope, under the title Honorius II. Honorius marched on Rome and captured it, but two years later the defection of Hanno of Cologne, for complex political reasons, caused the revolt to fail.+++++

+++++As a reviewer who regards himself as a pioneer in the study of medieval sexuality, I judge this book as the best short introduction to medieval sexuality that I have read. The first chapter is an outstanding examination of the problems of writing about sex in medieval Europe. The comparative lack of sources for medieval sexual conduct is compounded by the fact that the sources themselves differ. One view, mainly promulgated by extant church writing, is a negative view regarding sex as a pollutant and a threat to the soul. Opposed to this strict and sin-wracked image stands an earthier one. Lusty priests seduce the women who confess to them; noblemen keep mistresses; monks and nuns engage in secret liaisons while peasant couples copulate behind the hedgerows: such texts present a lustful, playful version of sex. For Karras, both views are true.+++++

+++++Early medieval Irish confessors, as reflected in their penitentials, were not worried by pederasty and made no great distinction between active and passive activity. They do distinguish between men and boys and talk about sexual acts that are mutual and do not fit into the active/passive paradigm. The penitential of Cummean (c. 650) in particular talked about boys having sex together and Columban (c. 600) instructed that a sodomite should never be housed with another person without mentioning the age of either person. Sex between monks was condemned frequently, and here also there was some equality in that sexual activity was between men of similar status. So in early Ireland, where there is no evidence of any homosexual subculture, there may well have been the option of sex on an equal basis. In this case Christian condemnation of both parties may, as Trumbach predicted, have led each partner to act for pleasure rather than to preserve social status. The only problem concerns the degree to which we can trust the penitentials to
reflect social reality.+++++

+++++Gerald does not fail to point out a connection between excessive eating and drinking and sexual incontinence, as medieval writers commonly did. No less than twenty chapters of Gemma Ecclesiastica are taken up with exhortation to chastity. The temptations of sex were no doubt something with which all priests and monks struggled. But Gerald's descriptions of the sexual misdemeanours of monks are so vivid, and his denunciations of them so strong (and often violently misogynist), that one may suspect that his writing on the subject is coloured by a long personal struggle for self-control. The chapter headings in the Gemma are self-explanatory: 'That women who prevent our salvation and lead us to damnation should not be called our friends but rather our dread enemies'; 'On not staring at women'; 'That intoxication and gluttony are to be avoided because they lead to lust', etc.

Elsewhere Gerald more wryly acknowledges the problem of clerical celibacy in a chapter entitled 'That the temptation attacks priests and clerics more than other men'. Here he records the reply of the Carthusian St Hugh of Lincoln (1140-1200) to a woman who had sought his counsel over the impotence of her husband: 'let us make him a monk', St Hugh advised, 'and the power will be immediately restored to him'.+++++

So we can see a situation where Marines exercise droit du seigneur over all women in their domains. We can see situations where newly installed Marine commanders try to clean up their commands, causing outright civil war. Either way, Codex chapter Chaplins are going to spend a lot of time condemning sexual activity by Marines, whether it actually happens or not.

This can all be a massive source of arguments between Marines, and hence good roleplaying.

Dunno If it's fair to compare Christian Monk with Space Marines. You know Space Marines are bunch of cold blood murderers, they submit whole sectors to Imperial autohority or destroy it if it's not possible. Genocide campaigns are common for those guys. I think it can be really bad think to compare those two groups. It's unfair and unjust... for Space Marines of course. Even tho they are who they are they didn't commit such atrocities like christian church.

Other think is that they aren't christian monks from real history. There is so much thinks that is different I don't know why you give us stories about monks who nailed girls in medieval ages. I didn't read about any Black Templar Grand Marshal who took bride to his cell and show her what is astartes GREATEST weapon

Other think Marines can't do some nasty think like our monks or priests because it's first step to being plaything for chaos gods. So probably they want to be as pure as they can and Chaplain watch them. You know that big guy with big power staff?

Also Special Forces =/= Astartes

SF If not on mission lives with families, they have kids and they go to retirement at age of 40? SM who is 40 can be finishing his Scout training. If you want to compare SF compare it to warhammer SF - Stormtroopers. yeah those guys are more alike. But of course SF guys aren't living from birth on fortress world near cosmic anomaly where monsters live, they aren't taught to shoot with lasgun at age of 5, they aren't taught that everybody can be traitor, they don't believe that only think that can save their soul is "Immortal God who is man who died but he is alive and who sits on Golden Throne and protects his ass". So maybe even SF=/= Stormtroopers

Siranui said:

The timetables of monks didn't leave much room for sitting around with girls on their laps, and nor does the training program for today's special forces. Given that marine existence is a melding of the two, I don't think that they finish work at 5pm and go for a beer.

IRL, I work with special forces soldiers. They have time for their wives (and I've seen them sitting in laps when the local pub is crowded), and they have time enough to play on the soccer team with me, so I don't think you're speaking with accuracy here. If you're ONLY talking about their initial training, then you might have a point, but after that things get a bit more workable and expect that it's the same for Space Marines - they don't spend hundreds of years without some downtime.

That downtime is important for me because I don't just want to play "on-mission 100% of the time" games. I've found that downtime gaming sessions can be quite interesting in other games, and I see no reason they can't be in Deathwatch too. Not coincidentally, some of that time may involve the subject of this thread (at least in 'fade to black' levels of detail).

We'll take this bit by bit because you've obviously got a lot of stuff here that deserves dissecting.

Siranui said:

I honestly wonder how many of the above categories you've known:, the elite soldiers I've known (US Rangers, PJ's Tactical Air Patrol) drank like fish, the stock broker I know (not the on the floor guy, the guy who works for a brokerage) does too.. The one olympic level athlete i've met(silver medalist) was several years after the fact but they definitely had a train hard work hard mentality. There is what's commonly known as a saturation point when training further literally does no good. In short I believe the 15 minuete personal time is both unsustaininable and pointless. You can choose to have a coronary about that, but it it's not even rule of cool realistic which is what the vast majority of 40k runs on.

When you need to be the best in the galaxy, that doesn't leave much time for anything else. Yes: It's sort of one dimensional, but that's almost the point of playing and exploring the character: Exploring their personality within that dimension and niche. I believe that playing a Marine as a normal Joe who just happens to be an uber killing machine is rather missing out on a fantastic roleplay oppertunity to play something that is obstinately part of the Empire of Man, but who is no longer truly human.

And I believe that if you'r no longer the best in the galaxy because you had a sip of wine, went to a party, talked to a girl (or a boy) or looked at a game of dice you were not the best to begin with. Further it is the inhumanizing things that make space mariens the best soldeirs in the galaxy, the hardened bones, the hundreds of years spent learning their craft, the psycho conditioning, not the fact that they don't have any sort of individual distinction or personal life. You know who it describes? Grey Knights, a cadre of psykers mind condiitioned to be nothing but soldiers, who would likely have a psychic break if they were ever let off the leash for a few seconds.

Divorcing the romance from the warrior saga isn't too tricky. Firstly, it's often a poor theme for an RPG anyway, as friends do not want to sit around and watch their friends try to seduce imaginary women. Because it's a personal storyline rather than a group one, running romance based story-lines can result in one or two players taking up a lot of GM time. The romance in warrior-sagas is often tacked on anyway. It's 'oh yeah, and to prove the hero is also hetrosexual and virile, we'll sing a bit where he seduces a dozen women in a night'. Finally... well, I covered it above in the 'roleplaying something that's not a human' bit.

Outside of raw "Everyone's together all the time because to seperate the party is to invite instant death and replacement by a shape shifter" dungeon crawls and bug hunts every kind of game is going to have some non group roleplay. And more the better for it. If your not having individualized roleplay why arn't you playing a board game or minis? It's easier and doens't tie someone up on GM duties.

As to 'why no woman marines': That's not really very valid as part of the debate, as it's firmly established in canon.

This bit right here, more then anything else makes you a grognard. Your get morally offended about minor details when at the same time deciding those details really don't matter. Why no women marines has always boiled down to me as a technical limitation that because of 40K's mysticism angle to technology no one has bothered to surmount. You hold it up like a sanctified ideal.

You wouldn't run a star wars game where the Jedi use ninja stars instead of lightsabres, would you? The geneseed is stated to be specifically tailored to only work with male genetics.

If one of the Jedi at the table wanted to use throwing weapons who am I to stop them? But you may have chosen a more poor analogy then you know. Lucas original vision for jedi were asexual bhudist fighting machines. That quickly got worked out and reversed because frankly as he discovered it paints you into a corner storyline wise.

**** didn't realize there was no preview and i meant no Tactical Air control Party.

HappyDaze said:

I was. That's why I wrote it. /facepalm.

As to *might*; SF trainees don't even get enough sleep, let alone any time off. Look how hard you need to work in the world to be the best. The best runner, the best businessman, the best whatever... it's a lifestyle that most of us can't comprehend, and one that generally can't be embarked upon without what the rest of us would call OCD, because none of us 'normal' people are capable of pushing ourselves that hard... forever. Aluminiumwolf wants his marines to be the most disgustingly uber killing machines in the galaxy, but the truth is that without constant honing of skills... they're not.

As the best *in the galaxy* I see Marine training as being pretty remorseless and never ending. A Marine is either on campaign, or back at base undergoing refresher training, or perhaps training others. The time that PCs spend in Deathwatch is the most downtime they'll ever self-manage, unless they become fairly senior in their Chapter. Which is interesting in itself, as Marine PCs find their own way and self-govern their time. Do they push themselves as hard as they would be pushed at home, or do they branch out, or even slack off?

lurkeroutthere said:

'The Jedi' as in 'all of them' as in 'no lightsabres'.

Siranui said:

*Snerk* Ok so your saying that the ***** is the ancestral weapon and iconic of the space marines? That it is as iconic to them so much so that to see someone with one it is automaticly assumed they are a space marine? That the two are inseperable? Here I thought it was mostly the power armor, drop pod assaults, super human enhancement and rightous zeal.

Moving on to your other points, your repeated goal is that no one could possibly understand space marines life, which is internally consistent at least because you lay it out it makes no sense and more so is at odds with quite a bit of the canon.You say that quite clearly it has to conform to your idea of special forces basic training, when that is seldom if ever held up as the case and moreso isn't very sustainable.

Or put this way, in competetative sports and combat sports it's a commonly held axiom that you only get better by doing, by testing, training takes you only so far. After having a hundred years of field esperiene and rifle time i really don't expect your average space marine to get anything more from constant drill, they've literally done all the drills hundreds if not thousands of time, why wouldn't they after putting in the maintenance focus on other pursuits?

You keep wanting to draw real world analogies that seem to be based only on Hollywood perception. At the end of the day the best humanity has to offer while being definition more driven then most still have other activities and must presumably love what they do enough that it supplants other areas of fullfillment. But even then I wonder if you could come up with stories of virginal super athletes or soldiers to support your theory.

lurkeroutthere said:

I think you've taken a throw-away comment and ran with it in totally the wrong direction. That's not what I meant at all.

No-one can understand marine life? How so? Which part of the 'it's like playing an alien, but with a chance of actually roleplaying it 'right' because we can do it from a human perspective' line that I was taking led you to that? That's not what I was stating at all. Yes: It's hard for me to put my place in a totally driven athlete with chronic OCD and motivate myself to the same degree, but that's not the same as roleplaying a Marine during combat missions.

Conflicts with canon? How?

I really think you've got totally the wrong end of the stick.

Why is that pace of training not sustainable for bio-engineered super-soldiers, who can literally kill their foes while taking it in turns with themselves to sleep? We've got a canon piece of material that specifically states that's exactly the pace that Marines train at while 'home'.

Indeed: The only way you improve is against a better opponent. Fortunately, the Chapter is comprised of other uber-soldiers to train against. Unless you are *the* best at something, then there will be a training partner you can learn from. Furthermore the DW tomes themselves infer that there's 'always more to do'; for example, the Codex is pretty big and many Ultramarines and their successors commit it all to memory, in time. After a hundred years of training, there clearly is more to do within the scope of the game rules, as player characters continue to gain XP. Outside that context, then I suspect that there is still always more to learn from one's Brothers, which is why senior members take on leadership mantles, or become experts in chapter lore. Within the scope of this thread, I don't think that they run out of things to learn, so go wenching instead. 'Other persuits' certainly, but 'wenching' and 'looking after the kids' are not two of them!

Virginal super athletes in the real world have no bearing and I don't need to tell tales of them to support my theory at all, because they are not genetically engineered super athletes who have ceased to be human and undergone years of psychological conditioning. Additionally; athletes and soldiers in our world generally mix with the population on a regular basis. They do not live monastic lives apart from the population. Space Marines can't go down the pub and meet hot boys/girls every evening. Although it's worth noting that -for example- monastic students of martial arts in China -for example- DID live pure lives, and soldiers undergoing training also live pretty pure lives because they're on-base/FTX/whatever 24 hours a day for long periods of time, so don't get a choice in the matter.

One for Aluminium Wolf: In your play-group of macho and virile marines, are there any homosexual relationships in the group; either between players, or players and NPC Brothers? I

Certainly I have played with a lot of gay people. Lurid homosexual sex tends to feature in direct proportion to how much this will wind up the straights.

I have a nasty feeling that gay Marines would be almost as bad as neutered Marines to a lot of their audience. I know I used to stop reading novels if I was ambushed by gay sex half way through. But then again I really liked how inclusive Doctor Who was under Russel T Davies.

So I dunno. There is good material to steal from - the Achilles/Patroclus relationship to start with. But I don't know how ready the fen are.

You want canon sources on Astartes sexing it up? Fine, here's some references on Astartes sexing it up for you to look up on during your free time. Not mine, yours. It's 3AM and my caffeine subsistence is about to wear off.

Emperor's Children chaos marine ****** a woman in official art. (supposedly no longer in print so that the kids don't get offended and call mommy)

Space Wolves groping women. Honestly people, do you really think that's a behavior for an asexual being? Are you that naive?

Salamanders having "families". This can mean a lot of things, but doesn't exclude marital relationships.

That said... If Space Marines have enough willpower to coldly choose martyrdom over survival and not go Sly Marbo sometime during their first century of service, they also have enough willpower to ignore a comparatively minor thing such as sexual lust, especially if they see it as counter-productive. If they, for some reason, don't... Refer to Space Wolves. Heck, refer to vaguely homoerotic undertones of Ian Watson's book. Just because their sexual energy is being massively re-routed through necessity and ritual living doesn't mean it's not there.

And castrating soldiers and/or officers doesn't necessarily make them easier to handle. That's was naive then and is naive now.