The question becomes Morangias is your definition of normal the norm? Is your definition of it accurate? The truth of the matter is we cannot be sure because the point is left vague and even many of our examples suffer from sample bias, their taken from legendary historical records or sample bias. I mean the Grey Knights keep coming up in discussion, the Grey Knights arn't even normal by space marine standards as their effectively mentally created by the inquisition to be perfect little anti-demon soldiers. I would think the implications of the Grey Knights would be horrifying to even the stauchest pro-imperial space marine chapter not an ideal to aspire to.

I think for me it comes back to this: If space marines were incapable of having sex or fathering children they would have said so explicitly. Since they didn't I must assume that they can, that doesn't mean that all of them want to or even have an interest but it leaves a whole host of possibilities, and ultimately since good stories about space marines or anyone else pull back to their conflicts not just martial but about their nature I think the writers have likely intentionally left that tool in the toolbox. Likewise I think that to believe that sexual urges are a detriment to the quality of soldiers sells the mental qualities of those soldier short. In short I believe that the emperor whould be more concerned with soldier who would live the monastic ideal because they believed in the monastic ideal rather then because they were forced to. Further by my understandign the emperor himself didn't live the monastic ideal as there's hints that he had kids, and lots of them.

TLDR: It's not any more mature to have celebate space marines then not, it's not any more effective to have celebate space marines then not. What i think is important is how you handle the stories of each.

Now, let's not conflate two different things.

Whether Space Marines should be able to have sex is a matter of personal taste. I'm sure there are people out there who can make this work. For me, it will never work, because I like my settings as internally consistent as possible, and the idea that Space Marines have never-mentioned secret sex lives in their 15 minutes' free time daily, or that the douchebag control freak who created them saw any use for his supersoldiers having the weirdest boner each time they slaughter a batch of Daemonettes, are in conflict with what I know about the setting and thus impair my ability to suspend disbelief. But that's just me and I sure as heck don't intend to hold GW hostage until they accede to my demands and write an official statement on Space Marines being asexual into their next codex.

Then, we have AlluminiumWolf stating that Deathwatch is, and should be, the perfect game for That Guy, a claim for which I have no patience, being a fan of Deathwatch and a sworn enemy of Those Guys. Thus, my swift and harsh response.

Do you never tire of always being afraid that people are looking down on you for your choices in pretending to be an elf? Do you never want to cut loose and unironically play Conan?

Give in to your urges. Live the dream, if only for a few hours.

Space Marines, man. There will never be a better time to give in to the Warhammer!

Unleash your inner Space Marine!

Frankly, if you are frightened that people will think you are That Guy because of your choice of roleplaying game, there are probably better things to be playing than Games Workshops Space Marine game. Don't eat at McDonalds if you want people to think you enjoy fine dining.

I suggest Clover.

It is a game about an adventurous five year old girl and her friends and the adventures that they go on together. It is touching, sweet, challenging, intense, and nostalgic.

This is Clover:-

Clover, and the family next door (May, Sarah, Laurel, and Rose):-

Now there is a game you can feel smarted for playing and enjoying.

Conversly, this is a Space Marine.

Seen Clover? Still here? Hate to break it to you guy, but people are totally gonna think you are that guy no matter how much you protest you are not.

Why not lie back and enjoy it?

I have no idea what you're on about at this point, and get the feeling that you completely failed to comprehend the concept of "That Guy".

Captain Ventris said:

Well, explain to me. Why exactly are you frightened that people will think you are That Guy?

You...you didn't read Morangias' post, did you? You honestly do not understand his definition of "That Guy"?

There is literally no point in discussing this if you cannot understand why powergaming is no good. It's like explaining color to a blind man who also passionately hates colors.

So why is powergaming no good?

Is it because someone told you it was bad, and you believed them?

Internalised the fear until you were always questioning whether liking cool things made you a bad person?

Pish. Sod that noise. Play a Waffen SS Tiger Tank company if you want to. Collect Napoleons Old Guard. The only thing stopping you from having fun is your fear.

So let's say that SM have a ding ding dong and loyalist choose not to have sex but what about traitors. Those guys especially Slaanesh Marines love pleasure and taking everything to maximum. So why didn't we heard about nasty and terrible **** campaigns they make? Why there is no mention of half marines they breeded... or answer is that we also didn't hear about them not having sex? Therefor they do.

Btw I <3 power gaming If our group agreed that we all will play like that, and what power gaming mean to you Aluminium Wolf? Becouse I can't see anything common with my definition and playing SS soldiers and collecting minis.

coolzyg said:

Er, I mean collecting the 'coolest' super elite units instead of the boring sensible ones.

Battles involving nothing but British Rifles and French Imperial Guard. Panther tanks battling Eazy Company paratroopers. That kind of thing.

AluminiumWolf said:

Did it occur to you that some of us have already been there, and got bored?

I only played Elves in WFRP 1e. The things I did in oWoD to squeeze more power out of the dots on my character sheet were truly unspeakable. When I started playing Exalted, it took me about two weeks of skimming through sourcebooks to make a starter level build immune to 90% other starter level builds (bonus points for you, he was a total BDSM painslut), and then I used it to troll my players.

Compared to all that, 40k RPG poses no challenge for me. I can optimize the crud out of Deathwatch. But frankly, I don't care. The cheap thrill of powergaming is lost on me, for I have walked the path of munchkin and gazed into the face of PunPun himself.

Seriously, your unhealthy enthusiasm suggests that when you talk about relieving the best days of your childhood, you're actually referring to last summer.

+++++Did it occur to you that some of us have already been there, and got bored?+++++

Then don't look too harshly on those of us still walking the path?

:0)

lurkeroutthere said:

I don't really follow the 'left that tool in the toolbox' theory, though. GW's writers have stooped to pretty much every 'valid' low over the years, so I really can't buy it. We have plenty of scandal as regards non-Astartes... but still not one mention of a Marine turning to his Brothers for a night of passion, nor one great wunderkind hero who was the son of a space marine, et al. Odd, given that even the Emperor can sire children, and they *are* noted, don't you think?

Simply: GW's writers are incapable of leaving tools in the box, unless implicitly told to. Even the two expunged Chapters have been mentioned in novels. It would be interested to see the GW Writers Guide.

Lack of evidence is itself not evidence. One could counter that because they haven't explicitly stated that they CAN sire children, they can't.

As to underselling marines... We are talking about a body of a million men, that has existed for ten thousand years. I don't think that if it was possible that 'expecting' a bunch of marines to have 'fallen' and been sleeping with their Brothers, or outside parties over that course of time and there to be even a shred of circumstantial evidence pointing towards it to be underselling them. Once again, let's bring up a comparison with the Catholic Church!

AluminiumWolf said:

That's not even the point I was making. But at least you've now moved on to dredging up irrelevant threads and posting out of context quotes as a means of argument, rather than just making 'facts' up. Good work, there!

There is a difference between 'power gaming' and 'high powered gaming'. I quite like high powered gaming, sometimes. Obviously not all the time, but it can be fun at times; normally in conjunction with beer. And DW is indeed great for it, partly because I've been waiting for the game for 20 years, and partly because Astartes are dirt hard. I can cut lose and play a high powered game without power gaming, still.

That's still not power gaming, and my character does not need a working willy for me to enjoy it. A working willy does not make my character cooler, to my mind. I don't see how it would, given that he doesn't knock off work at 7pm, and nip down to a strip joint to pick up a pro. And if not having a working willy means that the chance of any of my friends electing to share their homoerotic fantasies with me around a gaming table is reduced to zero, then I'll chalk that up as a bonus!

And by the way... I do have a 1:300 SS Panzer division and British Napoleonics army. I enjoy playing them. Knowing that a large proportion of those guys with muskets had the pox and disentery, and that some of my SS guys have had their nuts blown off by shrapnel and were bullied at school does not affect my enjoyment at all.

AluminiumWolf said:

As long as you keep your filthy powergaming out of my lawn... err, game, I meant game!

Seriously, though, the sooner anyone leaves this path, the better for the whole community. Encouraging Those Guys is the last thing roleplayers (as in, all who enjoy roleplaying, I mean none of that "role vs roll" bullcrap) need.

I won't stop you from playing the way you do, but don't expect me to enable you. Ever.

Hmmmm The subject of sex & powergaming are closly intertwined. I prefer looking at my Space Marines like I would the Knights of the Round Table or or Slaine, Beowulf or even the Rangers of the North in LotR. I am a powergamer when I play Deathwatch, it does not stop me from playing out the flaws of my character though: brawling with other SMs, getting drunk and sometimes taking a lusty wench. This is one of the reasons I believe that Space Wolves are quite passionate about protecting normal humans. The most feral Space Marines are closest to normal men in thir Hearts. How could you ever become a good Storyteller if you cut out the basic human drives. One of the main chapter skills of the Space Wolves is Storyrelling

Pallomides said:

Err, what?

Pallomides said:

Aren't Space Wolves the only Marines who figured out how to get drunk at all? I remember reading somewhere that Fenrisian Ale is the only alcoholic beverage strong enough to intoxicate an Astartes. Though that may as well be /tg/-canon.

And I'm pretty sure that attacking your Battle Brother outside of a ritualized duel is among the most shameful things a Space Marine could do.

Pallomides said:

Considering Space Wolves storytelling tends to be aimed at fellow Space Wolves, I can totally see them telling stories that are relevant to Astartes and not normal humans.

Pallomides said:

You've lost me there. How?

Even the most min-maxxy players I know never reference sex at the table. I totally understand that sexual reference is popular with immature players. And I totally understand that powergaming is popular with immature players. In the Venn diagram of gaming, that doesn't mean the two are closely intertwined, no more than... erm... *struggles for a reference* ... Pop music and iPhones are intertwined because a lot of teenagers like both.

AluminiumWolf said:

So... characters who are celibate have no personality and are only left with emotions like HATE and KILL simply because they don't copulate? I guess that if you ever run into a personal life dry spell of any length that I'll see you on the news committing some sort of postal massacre as those would be the only social interactions you have left. I'm also guessing you're not very religious or at least have no respect for the entire castes of people that choose lifetime celibacy or simply have no biological drive towards sex (so not really a choice there). Marines that I play have personality beyond the combat round that relates to bonds of brotherhood with their surrogate family (chapter, kill team, etc) as well as interactions with normal humans than can gain meaning over time. There is nothing in marine lore that I see that somehow limits the same width and breadth of personality you can exhibit with your own family members. There is in-game noncombat interaction beyond just using your crotch mounted close combat weapon!

People don't generally have a problem with YOU roleplaying your marine the way you want in your own campaign and have no right to tell you that you can't as long as you and your GM/other players are fine with it. You DON'T however have the right to tell us that you're doing it the "correct" way despite any real evidence to directly support it and deem characters and players who choose the overwhelming majority viewpoint on the matter as having dull characters with no personality. I can like ketchup on my ice cream but that doesn't mean the two are complementary nor that it's the right topping or that people who don't have no taste buds.

Go read more about Spacewolves. . . .

Pallomides said:

Go read the other 99.999% of fluff about space marines which includes no mention of it.

Siranui said:

Siranui said:

Sorry dude but the subject is Sex and the single Space marine" and everybody is texting about powergaming thus I made that extrapulation. Sorry about the confusion.I was trying to be ironic.

As far as mature & immature goes: I openly belong to the immature lot: Tell me whats "mature" about roleplaying a super uebermensch killer who does not get sick, is twice as tough & strong ,sees,hears and smells better and can chew his way out of jail. How can you take yourself so seriously in this matter?

But alas each to his own.

"Space Wolves: Making beards and beer popular since 30K"

Sanguinary Priest said:

Its not about whats not there. Why must I look for where its not.????? I tend to look for where it is. Thank the Emporer created Leman Russ & Spacewolves at least some Spacemarines can have fun.

What space wolf fluff are you referring to? I've read the first SW omnibus and don't recall any mention of sex in there; is there one in the second? The codex only has a blurb about the lord who started a war by making a casual pass at a woman (old habits die hard and even celibate people flirt occasionaly) or the one about Lukas bedding women BEFORE his becoming a space marine? Neither proves anything other than Space Wolves being crass space vikings which we already knew. Can you quote a scene in a recognizable source of 40k lore that actually details a marine sexual encounter? 30 years of fluff retconned incessantly should have included some direct, unequivocable reference to marine sexuality if it existed. As for that last part, you can have fun with your pants on. Being celibate doesn't mean that you're dull, black hole of fun btw.

Pallomides said:

Because it takes so much of the faffing out of roleplay. No more setting watches, worrying about rations, deciding how to get through the Forest of Disease, making pointless perception tests to spot the obvious, taking five minutes to decide HOW to open the door to the bad guy's lair... just get on with the important parts of the game, with no concern for the micro-management.

And in many ways, there is a lot to explore with such a character. 25 years of canon back-story, and unique characters who are not human, yet can concievably played accurately by a human being and have to deal with humanity. There's an awful lot of scope for mature roleplay there. And if you *do* want to bring sex into it then that can be mature in scope as well, because it's likely to deal with homosexual bonds forming within a fighting unit and amongst the chain of command, which is likely to cause some pretty deep and interesting issues.

***

I haven't read much Wolf stuff recently, so I've avoid mention, but I also can't recall any reference to one getting down and dirty, or sneaking off for a combat jack!