Hello,

I have small problem. I have 2 cards named Bay of Ice in play.
How many cards will I draw, if i win initiative?

My theory is:

"After a player wins initiative," is condition. It means this effect will be triggered if player wins initiative.
"that player kneels all cards named Bay of Ice," is cost. It means I must kneel all these cards.
"then draws a card." is card effect.

It means If I can kneel all cards named Bay of Ice, I must do it. And I draw a card, only if i paid a cost (because, rule in errata 4.19).
But the second Bay of Ice cost cannot be paid, because I can't kneel all cards named Bay of Ice. It means I will not draw second card.

Is my theory true? Will I draw only one card, even I have two cards with the same effect?

Thanks for answer.
Excuse me my English.

There's only one mistake in your explanation: kneeling all copies of Bay of Ice is not a cost but part of the effect. Other than that you got everything right. Since there's a "then" preceeding the "draw a card effect" you must successfully kneel all cards named Bay of Ice. If you cannot do that you don't get to draw a card.

Multiple copies only help you win initiative with the +1 bonus. Also, it doesn't matter who controls the Bay of Ice: if you control it and another player wins initiative, he gets to draw.

eloooooooi said:

ktom said:

Forgive this unworthy one's impertinece, oh envy of the universe, and do not crush him under your mighty heel, but this one's copy of Bay of Ice says "After a player wins initiative, that player kneels all cards named Bay of Ice, then draws a card".

*ducks*

My mistake. I was mixing it up with Walder Frey - a passive that does have a cost.

Maybe you had Kingdom of Shadows in mind.

It can even make a difference: If Bay of Ice gets canceled by Wildling Wisewoman, it stays standing, whereas it would be kneeling if the kneeling was a cost, which makes a difference when Captain of the Iron Fleet is in play.

Vaguely related question: Is Wildling Wisewoman the only effect that can cancel a passive in the environment right now?

Can Wildling Wisewoman even cancel Bay of Ice, given the draw is a "then" effect?

Khudzlin said:

That's an interesting question, really. It depends on how you interpret paragraph 4.18 of the FAQ (page 11):

When attempting to cancel an effect that
"would" occur, that effect would have to occur
(if it were not canceled) by the end of step 3 of
the action window the cancel interrupts.

Bay of Ice's effect doesn't occur by step 3 of the Action window, because it is only initiated in step 4. But that would mean Wildling Wisewoman can never cancel a passive, because their effects *always* occur after step 3 of the action window in which they initiate. So I can only assume "action window" in this paragraph does not only mean Player Action window and Framework Action window, but also includes the resolution of passive "actions", which, too, follows the "1. Initiate - 2. Save/Cancel - 3. Resolve" formula of Player and Framework Actions.

in other words: Yes, Wildling Wisewoman can cancel Bay of Ice, because the draw effect is resolved in step 3 of the passive ability of Bay of Ice. If Bay of Ice said "After a player wins initiative, that player kneels all cards named Bay of Ice to draw an additional card in the draw phase this round", then Wildling Wisewoman could not cancel it.

Does any of what I wrote actually make sense to anybody?

It makes sense, but you pointed out why it is wrong : the Bay of Ice resolves in step 4 of action window, not step 3.

The FAQ gives an exemple with Insidious way : it cannot be cancelled by the Wildling Wisewoman. It is also not resolved at step3.

Bolzano said:

Yes, but the point is that Insidious Ways creates a lasting effect that resolves in a different action window altogether, whereas Bay of Ice completely resolves within the same action "sequence" (for the lack of a better word) it was initiated. My assumption is that paragraph 4.18's reference to "step 3" also includes step 3 of resolving the passive effect (it's even called passive action in the flowchart!), and not only step 3 of the superordinate player action or framework event - although the term "action window" does seem to imply the opposite. It wouldn't be the first time the FAQ is somewhat ambiguous in its terminology.

EDIT: I expect ktom to step in any minute, telling us we're "overthinking" this.

You're overthinking this!

The reference to step 3 in FAQ 4.18 refers to step 3 of the action the cancel is interrupting. So it cannot refer to the "main" step 3 of a framework or player action window exclusively, but has to refer to the "second order" steps created by any effect initiating as a passive or as a response in that "main" window -- otherwise a passive effect or response could never be canceled. Bay of Ice creates its own steps 1 to 4 within the larger framework action window, and its effect would resolve in step 3.

More interesting is the question is whether Wildling Wisewoman can cancel Bay of Ice since its draw effect is a subsequent dependent effect. But I imagine when considering her play restriction, you look at whether the draw effect would occur given the current state of the game (i.e. all copies of Bay of Ice are able to kneel), and if that is true, you can use her ability to cancel the effect.

Yes. It is quite clear that the reference to "Step 3" applies equally to "Step 2.III," Step 4.III," and "Step 5.III." Don't go crazy limiting the application to standard actions, only.

As for the "would" aspect of Wildling Wisewoman vs. Bay of Ice, you may want to send it to FFG to be sure. It is easy to look at the FAQ entry as meaning that for the Wisewoman's play restriction to be met, the draw must happen as part of Bay of Ice's resolution. Because it is a "then" effect, the draw will not necessarily happen. And you cannot cancel just the "then" part after it becomes clear whether the draw will happen or not. Saturnine's "look at the whole circumstance" (aka, the "players are smarter than cards") approach makes sense to me, but with the timing of "then" effects not particularly well defined, it could easily go either way.