Mathias Fricot said:
You can still return Arianne to hand, it just doesn't successfully resolve GG.
No you can't. There are insufficient number of targets -- none -- to trigger the effect.
Martell: Outrageous
FATMOUSE said:
No you can't. There are insufficient number of targets -- none -- to trigger the effect.
Choosing a target is part of the cost?
Do X to do Y.
X is not "return a Martell noble character you own and control"?
I thought Y was a combination of "choose a character. Return that character to the owner's hand."
You have to have a valid target to attempt to trigger an effect. In order to attempt to trigger GG, you must have an opponent's character that you can choose. So if your opponent doesn't have any characters, you can't attempt to trigger the effect. Much like you can't use To Be A Stag if you don't have a character in your discard pile.
Got it. I knew that, sorry about that!
Using To Be A Stag is a poor example because the requirement for a target to be present is an Errata, and not part of the actual "targets need to be there" portion of how events function. So quoting the text of To Be A Stag is not an applicable example, it was a tone down of a super awesome card. It doesn't have a target - it does not have the word choose - but it has the requirement of event cards that do have targets. Courtesy of the FAQ. Non-extrapolatable.
Target rules are under event cards and character abilities on page 11 and 12 of the FAQ.
I do not see anything for locations.
Now someone will say we can extrapolate.
I will say that if that was the case then why is there an entry for targetting for both characters and events that is exactly the same? That needed to be printed, but it didn't need to be printed for locations. Maybe because it should be obvious. Maybe because it doesn't apply.
I will concede that I was actually incorrect based on the way we all play the game. For the sake of it I am going to point out that the requirement established for events and character abilities doesn't actually on paper in the rules apply to locations. Yes, there are lots of things that we extrapolate (like how to work with things that have X in it) but there are also things we don't extrapolate (like... say... that FAQ ruling on To Be A Stag to every single event that has an effect). So if I was judging I would say yes, go ahead and return Arianne to "choose" an opponent's character (even though they don't have one) if that player opened up the FAQ and showed be the passage FATMOUSE is using isn't actually for locations. But hey, I've always been a rules as written kind of guy, rather than a rules as used kind of guy.
Then again, I could be missing something obvious that says the rules for character abilities apply to locations. So ya never know.
Why would the rules for character abilities NOT apply for locations? An ability is an ability.
I assumed this was how it worked, but I was playing OCTGN online and someone used To Be a Dragon to repeatedly stand some weenie who could kneel to make me choose a card in his discard pile that he could get back. He didn't have anybody to target for the resurrection effect, and I assumed that meant he couldn't play the effect, but I didn't press the issue because I was going to win anyway.
AegonTargaryen said:
Actually, the deck worked kind of like this in 5 of 6 games in the Swiss Rounds (except for the Thundering Cavalry part, that worked only twice this day). In one game, when I did not have The Hatchling's Feast, I started with Valar instead and played Threat from the North and several Forever Burnings as my second reset later. In the end, I went 5-1 and made 8th place in Swiss out of 122 players.
My one (time) loss in the Swiss rounds was against a Martell Summer player who had a really excellent start himself. He made it summer in the first round and on top of that played two Viper's Bannerman in the first two rounds. Now that is what I call card adantage ! Also, these Bannermen are very resilient to burn effects ... and he played the dreaded GG. However, I burned everyone else, left him the field for a turn when he had a claim 1 plot and then killed both Bannermen and Arianne with Valar. He could not return Arianne to his hand with GG because I had no characters on the table ! The turn after Valar, he almost got a heart attack when I revealed Retaliation!, played Rhaeny's Hill, reanimated his Bannermen, Arianne and a decent pile of other dead characters, and got four cards from his former Bannermen myself. This round almost turned the tables (three claim intrigue with Arianne). But my reanimated army left and he came back when he drew a Samwell, played some Ravens and flooded the table with more characters, the Viper among them. With both Threat and Valar already used, I thought that was it, how could I survive until the plots where recycled two plots from now ? But among the next six cards I drew (Bay of Ice) I got my second Rhaeny's hill ! My opponent immediately began to complain how broken and overpowered that card is. However, when I used Rhaeny's Hill once more (4 more cards for me), I had more characters now and he was able to make multiple attacks with his Viper, keeping the pressure going, and I had mainly to prevent him from winning this round. Also, he played Edric Dayne and used him with GG to return the reanimated Arianne to his hand. Even though I killed one of his characters, at the end of the seventh round, he had 14 power, two of those on characters, however. I knew he had Arianne and Edric in hand. But my hand was full of cards, too, burn cards among them, and Valar would kill his characters on the table next turn, including the Viper, so maybe I could turn the tides once more. But at this moment, a judge appeared and told us that we should not start the next round, as time had been already called. So he won with 14 power to my 10. A great and entertaining match.
I then lost to a Lannister Maester in the first round of Top32. The chains did not matter, as he was only able to play them when he actually had already won the game. My opponent told me after the game he even was afraid in the beginning his agenda would turn against him when if I eliminated all his maesters. Again I started with Threat from the North and Hatchlings Feast and killed a good bunch of wheenies. But he had a Golden Tooth Mine and two Pyromancer's Caches online very soon. This insane amount of card draw broke my resistance, as he drew lots of kneeling events, his kneeling locations and of course additional characters. A Favorable Ground was not enough to stop him at this point (the Caches were on limited locations) and it hurt me too, as I had to discard my only Bay of Ice. I never drew a Dragon Thief or Meereenese Brothel to stop the Caches before it was to late. In the end, he intrigued away my hand, brought out a Conclave and won by placing all his chains with two turns of unopposed challenges.
Hello there
this is offtopic ofc and im sorry for that but i could not see a way of sending someone a Personal Message here on the forum.
im wondering if u would mind sharing ur deck with me (or the rest) im still a relative starter and been playing my dothraki deck for a while now but id love to try a deck like yours.
thanks Voidy
DieMyDarling said:
Why would the rules for character abilities NOT apply for locations? An ability is an ability.
I assumed this was how it worked, but I was playing OCTGN online and someone used To Be a Dragon to repeatedly stand some weenie who could kneel to make me choose a card in his discard pile that he could get back. He didn't have anybody to target for the resurrection effect, and I assumed that meant he couldn't play the effect, but I didn't press the issue because I was going to win anyway.
To Be a Dragon has been errata'd along with To Be a Stag (litterally): it requires a character with cost 3 or less in the dead pile. The errata would be probably be better worded as "Stand a Targaryen character you control to choose and put into play a Targaryen character with cost 3 or lower in your dead pile." and "Stand a Baratheon character you control to choose and return to your hand a Baratheon character with lower printed STR in your discard pile.", thus making clear the character returned is a target of the effect (same end result, the requirement of an eligible character in the discard or dead pile).
Fun combo with 2 To Be a Dragon and Street Waif (the weenie you mentioned): if you have an empty discard pile and a dead pile full of weenies
- Use both To Be a Dragon (kneel characters with challenges or abilities if necessary)
- Use Street Waif to force your opponent to return 1 To Be a Dragon (remember your discard pile only contains 2 of them at that point)
- Use the returned To Be A Dragon with the Street Wait
- Repeat 2 and 3 until you run out of characters to bring back from the dead
Voidy said:
this is offtopic ofc and im sorry for that but i could not see a way of sending someone a Personal Message here on the forum.
im wondering if u would mind sharing ur deck with me (or the rest) im still a relative starter and been playing my dothraki deck for a while now but id love to try a deck like yours.
thanks Voidy
He has posted the decklist on agotcards, so you can look at it there if you're a member.
Hey wait! Was that a fat mouse scurrying through the thread back up there? I thought the mouse had gone forever! Soemone get the cat!
DieMyDarling said:
Why would the rules for character abilities NOT apply for locations? An ability is an ability.
I assumed this was how it worked, but I was playing OCTGN online and someone used To Be a Dragon to repeatedly stand some weenie who could kneel to make me choose a card in his discard pile that he could get back. He didn't have anybody to target for the resurrection effect, and I assumed that meant he couldn't play the effect, but I didn't press the issue because I was going to win anyway.
But a character ability is not an event ability is not a location ability is not an attachments ability.
The rule in the FAQ for event effects and character abilities is simple and straightforward, "If you do not have a valid target for an event, you may not play that event. Not all events have a target." The one for character abilities is essentially identical.
We make rulings all the time based on the precedent we get from Nate and Damon on other cards or effects. The idea that they would handle locations or attachments different is pretty shaky. The safe bet is that you must have a valid target.
Penfold said:
The rule in the FAQ for event effects and character abilities is simple and straightforward, "If you do not have a valid target for an event, you may not play that event. Not all events have a target." The one for character abilities is essentially identical.
We make rulings all the time based on the precedent we get from Nate and Damon on other cards or effects. The idea that they would handle locations or attachments different is pretty shaky. The safe bet is that you must have a valid target.
I agree.
Just saying when to generalize and when not to generalize is all good and fine when we all agree. My point is that I could use the same generalization principle your using to say "can't work with Ghaston Grey, its a location, look how characters are explained" with events that don't necessarily say "choose."
prec·e·dent [n. pres-i-duhnt; adj. pri-seed-nt, pres-i-duhnt] Show IPA
noun
1.
Law . a legal decision or form of proceeding serving as an authoritative rule or pattern in future similar or analogous cases.
2.
any act, decision, or case that serves as a guide or justification for subsequent situations.
Now apply that to To Be A Stag.
Funny how that works both ways.
Erm, I have no idea what you are talking about. This not necessarily you, it has been a long day. FAQ 3.0 reads -
(v1.3) To Be a Stag F46
To Be a Dragon F48
These cards cannot be played if there is no eligible character to return from the discard/dead pile.
I am not sure how that doesn't fit with what I quoted above.
Oh, okay Got it, TaS does not have a target so it appears as if there is a loophole. The rule I quoted cannot be directly applied, but there is also no direct conflict either so it leaves space for legitimate arguments either way. What I was saying with precedent is that when you have a ruling made that goes in similar lines and no clear contradiction that applying that rule makes the most sense.
In this particular case a credible argument could have been made that because the "not every event has a target" was specifically mentioned means that the rule cannot apply to events without targets. I can understand that. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. But the errata/clarification for this has been around for a while now, and what it does is specifically close a loophole, but since GG specifically directs you to choose a target, the rules I quoted still create a very strong precedent.
Penfold said:
Erm, I have no idea what you are talking about. This not necessarily you, it has been a long day. FAQ 3.0 reads -
(v1.3) To Be a Stag F46
To Be a Dragon F48
These cards cannot be played if there is no eligible character to return from the discard/dead pile.
I am not sure how that doesn't fit with what I quoted above.
Oh, okay Got it, TaS does not have a target so it appears as if there is a loophole. The rule I quoted cannot be directly applied, but there is also no direct conflict either so it leaves space for legitimate arguments either way. What I was saying with precedent is that when you have a ruling made that goes in similar lines and no clear contradiction that applying that rule makes the most sense.
In this particular case a credible argument could have been made that because the "not every event has a target" was specifically mentioned means that the rule cannot apply to events without targets. I can understand that. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. But the errata/clarification for this has been around for a while now, and what it does is specifically close a loophole, but since GG specifically directs you to choose a target, the rules I quoted still create a very strong precedent.
I know, and I agree with you on how to play out Ghaston Grey. I am helping as judge for our local tournament next week, and I know people are going to be playing Ghaston Grey. I will be ruling no bounce unless the target is there, as that is the commonly accepted ruling. When to extend requirements for abilities to trigger/resolve is tough when you have cases (like TBaS/TBaD) that are not considered as a precedent, while at the same time having some cases that are considered a precedent (like the target being present to pay the cost).
Plus I love splitting hairs, keeps us on our toes.