Hi guys!

So as we now all know the:

An Offer You Can't Refuse
Twilight Gate
The Large Man

combo is a first turn win. The Large Man and An Offer You Can't Refuse is a 2 cards infinite loop. My question is: are such overpowered combos hurting the game? The increasing cardpool and powercreep will most likely lead to more such broken synergies in the future. Again: is this hurtin the game? Discuss!!!

Too early to say now, as we haven't seen that combo in widespread use. And, well, it's a three card combo (if you want to pull it off on first turn) and pretty easy to disrupt, unless timed perfectly. Could become problematic in the long run, but nowhere near as broken as the Magah/Steps/Interrogation deck, and i think even that was beatable.....

So, my answer: Not yet, but maybe in the long run.

First of all: too early to say. But we can make an educated guess.

- You must play syndicate: beside the combo card, what other cards are going to be really useful in the deck?

- For a first turn win you need 3 cards out of 8 (9 or 10, considering the first turn penalty or starting second). You need one of the resources to be Syndicate.

- Sacrificial offering is a commonly played card that can stop the combo

- It's quite plenty of removals that can handle the large man

- there are cancel effects that can disrupt the combo

Is this going to be a good combo and possibly an entire new archetype? I think so, and honestly I think it was about time for the game to have combo in the meta!

Is this going to be completely game-breaking and in need for ban? right now absolutely no, in the future, maybe with new cards coming out, it _might_ become a problem.

But I have to say that I don't like ban. I think that if you want to play competitive you must be prepared to face some kind of decks: you cannot expect to bring to a tournament a random pile of cards and pretend to play it to win.

It is only healthy for the game to have some "staples" that you have to take care of somehow in your deck. This doesn't limit the deckbuild, it just push out of the field sub-optimal strategies.

On the other hand, if you think the combo destroy your local meta (or group of friends) nobody will stop you to local-ban the cards

my 2 cents

Konx/Francesco

Personally, I think a combo that lets someone win before their opponent gets a turn is definitely a problem and should be fixed. I'm not really sure instant-win combos belong in the game at all, but certainly not one that can happen on turn 1.

Problem is, it's hard to identify what should change here. None of the cards involved seem problematic on their own. It can only go infinite because Offer is a zero cost so that's the most obvious fix, but the card wouldn't be used anymore if you had to pay for it - it just doesn't deliver sufficient value IMHO, so you'd probably need to errata the effect as well. Messy.

dboeren said:

Offer should say "...opponent MAY draw one card."

Perfect solution! Doesn't hose any of the cards and the problem is fixed. Very good suggestion.

Well, we would have to playtest, but at first glance you would need a perfect draw of the following:

• Twilight Gate
• The Large Man
• An Offer You Can't Refuse
• Any other syndicate card.
• Any other Yog card.
• Any three other cards.

It seems like you are not going to draw that combo consistently. That being said, I'm not a fan of not allowing your opponent to even get a turn.

Well, someone would have to do the math to see how the percentages lie, but with 3 copies each and two attempts (mulligan), it doesn't seem too farfetched that it would work once in a while.

Besides, the issue isn't only about Turn 1. Letting someone get an instant win on Turn 2 or 3 isn't great either and by that time you've drawn more cards and had the opportunity to search for cards if you drew something that allows this (you are playing Yog after all). Theoretically, you could even let your opponent play The Large Man and Dopplenganger him. Obviously not possible every game, but every little added chance helps.

Aww, aparently I wasn't the only one to figure this out. Was hoping to keep it under wraps till I could do some more testing this weekend (with an actual opponent). That and I had a theory this is what Graham used to win in europe which if he didn't want to spoil I would respect that.

Anyway... my version of this strategy so far has been producing some amazing results. Roughly 46% first turn with and 50% turn 2 and only once did it not go off turn 3 or earlier. I should note to, if I found An Offer You Can't Refuse in my opnening hand, 88% of the time I was going off and only once did I not go off on turn 2. Keep in mind though, this is just me gold fishing (no interruption from an opponent) and it is a VERY small test sample. So things wouldn't be THAT good in real life.

Having said that, when playing myself I discovered a few things. Unless you are playing Syndicate (Intimidate), Cthulhu (Sacrifical Offering) or specifically using a card not normally found in decklists odds are you just lose to this deck unless you get lucky and it stumbles.

The deck list

"Large Refusal"
Syndicate
3x An Offer You Can't Refuse
3x Smuggler
3x Degenerate Gambler
3x Clover Club Bouncer
3x Intimidate

Yog
3x The Large Man
3x Twilight Gate
3x Journey to the Other Side
3x Speak to the Dead
3x Cannibal Ghast

Shub
3x Shocking Transformation
3x Lavinia Whateley
3x Thunder in the East
3x Grasping Cthonian

Other
3x Descendant of Eibon
3x Visiting Author
2x Local Sherriff

Why stuff is in here:
Under syndicate you have Smuggler and Degenerate Gambler for diggnig to find pieces. Clover Club is easily replaceable, but for 1 cost characters he can deny success tokens from 1 skill character's. It was a toss up between him and Patsy, but I rather have my guy in place and get more than one use than chuck a guy. Plus he can exhaust himself to you have something to kick start the combo if you had to hard cast the Large Man and couldn't commit to stories. A rare thing I know, but hey might as well be prepared. Intimidate is there for the mirror match and can be used to buy you time if you should need it.

For Yog the gate is there for turn 1-ness. Jounery is an excellent dig card best played before you draw your first card if you hope to go off turn 1. Speak with the dead can dig early for a tunr 2 setup, but it also can allow you to recover if you're opponent does happen to be playing cards that can stop you. Cannibal Ghast is merely here for stall and Shocking Transformation fodder.

Why shub? Shocking Transformation is why. Having (currently) 8 transient cards and 9 1 cost characters to sacrifice this becomes a subsitute for having to have both Twilight Gate AND The Large Man in your hand. Recurring ST first before firing off the combo is worth its wieght if you're opponent wasn't packing enough removal as you can keep the Large Men coming (until you run out of them obviously). Lavinia Whateley is another turn 2 set up card allowing you to find The Large Man when you have Twilight Gate. Thunder in the East digs and easily rids you of the pesky Snow Graves. Likewise for Crasping Cthonian, removes support problems and can be used as a shock traget if need be which is the primary reason why it got the nob over burrow beneath.

8 transeint cards... its true! Everything in the deck (with the exception of The Large Man himself, Local Sheriff, and Twilight Gate) costs 0,1, or 3. So acclerating to 3 doesn't set me back if my goal is to combo out as quicly as possible. However, as I said above, ever now and then you'll just miss twilight gate and shocking transformation and will be forced to hard cast The Large Mage. Its been pretty rare so far though.

I may in the future decide to go with Things in the Ground and drop my transient count to 6 for another turn 2 set up, but the added speed for a turn 1 win was more preferable to me right now.

Tricks to playing it :
One major trick I found was that if you do have the combo... wait until you're opponent refresh phase to do it! (Unless they're all drained out of course). Why? this will force your opponent to only use 1 domain a turn. As he will have to drain one to disrupt your combo (provided he has the card(s) to do it) and keep one open for your turn incase you can go off again. Leaving them with the 1 which drastically slows down any offense giving you more time to recover. And why before their draw phase? That way if their "out" is within the bottom so many cards of the deck you just might eek out a win by drawing them out.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Ok, theres my deck. Now should it be allowed to exsist? Absolutely not! You can't play a game if both players don't get a turn. Its not fun for anyone. There are only a handful of cards that even stop this combo and even fewer that are worth playing in normal play. First turn win going first should not exsist ever! I don't care how hard it is to pull off it shouldn't exsist. A first turn combo period shouldn't exsist. Even only playing a single turn of a game is aweful. Minimum of two is fair. You can win 3 stories in a minimum of 2 turns so a combo should be able to win no faster than turn 2. Its just fair that way. Well, more fair anyway. Would be better if it was best of 3 as getting ganked out of nowhere with not opportunity to recover still kinda sucks, but minimum 2 turns for an instant win isn't unreasonable, should be 3 or 4 though depending on how rare the situation would be.

Chevee had a good idea with an erratta to Offer. The only problem is it completely break the flavor of the card. Its and Offer they Can't refuse... so ya. I don't care, but I'm sure someone will. Of the problem cards it would give the nod to The Large Man. He is a combo machine and the most likely to be abused again. Pay 1 and exhaust, or banning would both work to stop this combo and tone down the others. Mechanically I like the offer erratta more, but if that is out, then The Large Man is the biggest offender in my opinion.

PS. @ badash56- You wouldn't need "Any other Yog card." As The Large Man would provide your Yog source to play Twilight Gate, so all you would need is the combo peices, Gate, one other syndicate card and any other 4 cards. Bonus points for Journey to the Other Side pre draw phase to dig for a piece you'd be missing. With mulligans this is more reliable than you'd think. Not as reliable as the deck I posted above, but more common than rare.

dboeren said:

Chances are, by turn 2 or 3 I already made sure the combo will never hit the table. I think I've mentioned it a couple of times, already: 'Snow Graves' is your friend! Never build a (competitive) deck without them! 'Sacrifical Offerings' has already been mentioned as well. What else could help? Let's brainstorm!

Magnus Arcanis!

Thank you for your very detailed and clear thoughts on this! I started this thread because I feel the same way you do. Allowing combos to exist that make a first turn win isn't fun and I think it will just ruin the game. I belive that the people doing the playtest (I hope there are peole doing this) and the desigenr of The Large Man just didn't notice this combo. Since we are all humans, this can happen. However I think this combo shouldn't be allowed since it reduces the game to a coin flip. If heads you loose cause the opponent drew the combo, if tail he dind't drew it and you can win. Not much strategy involved in it anymore.

I don't know who of you guys played Magic the gathering earlier, but it's just like Black Lotus - Channel -Fireball which wasn't fun either...

My 2 cents.

Magnus Arcanis said:

Oh yes.....duh.

Honestly I do not mind combos if people can figure them out, but I would agree with Magnus that something should change to at least not allow a first turn 'instant win'.

mephistopheles said:

@Magnus: Graham didn't win with this combo in Europe, he was using a Cthulhu-Shub deck based on Kopesh, toughness and the usual suspects. I believe, anyway, that he found the combo...or maybe he found another one, I don't know

About the deck: the decklist looks a lot like what I am testing right now (especially in the transient business).

I don't really agree with your opinion on the combo that should not be there, especially now that it is public. I first would like to see at least one tournament results with at least one player using the combo, since there are ways, used and less used, to deal with it. I honestly think that having combo is only good for the game and will lead to a more mature deckbuilding, oriented towards competitive and reliable decks (thing that I prefer, at least in tournaments).

my 2 cents

Konx

Just off the top of my head...

Intimidate
Sacrifical Offering
Dampen Light
Primal Fear

May be the only cards capable of disrupting the combo on the first turn. (Actually I doubt thats a complete list, but those were the only ones I've ever used that I can remember) I'm sure others will mention.

so... @ Konx. So... Unless you play Syndicate, Cthulhu or Yog... you have no chance at stopping the deck. (Unless it stumbles) I'm fine with combos even instant win combos. But... instant win on the first turn espeically going first is aweful. I really don't think this needs to be proved. Its a huge damper on the game and a major turn off for new players. This type of combo shouldn't exsist, but I don't see a way to slow it down to a reasonable level unless you gave the Large Man the Ancient One subtype... which that would be wierd. Oh, and anyone have an email for Graham? Would really like to talk to him personally. But ya... Shubthulhu pesh-ness... very strong stuff indeed.

Anyway, its just... this was clearly an oversight. Easily missed, but its better to be proactive in this case and instill a banning or an erratta. No one likes turn 1 combos. They're just too damaging. Why every other game looks to get rid of them too...

An alternative way to go would be to put both, The Large Man and An Offer You Can't Refuse on the Restricred List so these cards can't be played together. This way you don't need errata, however I am not a fan of restricting cards.

Hello,

I have played quite a lot of games (20 or so) using the following deck against a variety of other decks:

3x Anarchist
3x Patsy
3x Smugglers
3x An Offer You Can't Refuse
3x Dutch Courage

3x Faceless Abductor
3x The Large Man, Shorn But Patient
3x Speak to the Dead
3x Twilight Gate
3x Prism of Many Views, Endless Visions

2x Ghoulish Predator
2x Grasping Chthonian
3x Hungry Dark Young
2x Lavinia Whateley, Somewhat Deformed
3x Y'Golonac, The Obscenity
3x Shocking Transformation
2x Thunder in the East

3x Forgiveness?

http://cenacle-hd.bb-fr.com/t2315-yog-shu-syn-la-boucle-sans-tache-qui-tache

All I can say now is that the combo is NOT a game breaker. You really have to think a lot in order to use it correctly. Should your opponent know about the thread (an he will if he plays in a competitive way), his deck will include some answer, and he will keep a fresh domain in order to block the combo.

Many solutions are available to block the combo on T1, and the cards involved are most useful anyway.

- Power Drain
- Agoraphobia
- Horrifying daydreams

- Pulled under
- Sacrificial offering
- Primal fear

- Small price to pay

- Dampen light

- Intimidate
- Low blow
- Forcing the truth

And the all new STLodge Arcane Tampering!

Remember that the opponent WILL draw the card he needs to break you, as well as anything he wants to gain a major card advantage!

The combo is definitely not a game breaker.

(could not edit)

Note that:

1/ in a tournament, you cannot rely on the fact that you would go first...

2/ as the game evolves and new cards are added to the pool, new answers will come.

Quite a few of those "answers" (for instance, the ones to exhaust a character) only seem to put off the win for one turn though. If you cannot perform them every turn, you still lose to the combo.

About adding the Restricted keyword... I wouldn't mind if The Large Man was restricted, since he's a solid character with a lot of combo potential. Restricting Offer doesn't seem to make sense to me though, I think it would just guarantee that card is never played as it's nowhere near useful enough to be willing to spend your restricted slot on it. Nor does Twilight Gate seem like a natural card for restriction.

I see Magnus's point about breaking fluff a bit if you turn Offer into a card you actually *can* refuse, but that still seems to me like the least invasive solution here. Also, it doesn't prevent The Large Man from becoming restricted later on if it's ever determined to be necessary.

I am starting to think that The Large Man should be changed to pay 1 to use his ability maybe....like Magnus said, this card is going to consistently be a problem with combos in future sets unless it is re-done. Or maybe drive him insane to use the ability?

One thing that cannot be easily spotted without actually trying to use the combo is that if your opponent has an answer to it in his deck, he will draw it. Moreover, he controls his own draw. Nothing can prevent him from drawing "only" the next 20 cards of his deck. In this case, he will have the materials to definitely hamper the combo for the rest of the game, unless he is playing a deck that is not competitive enough...

IMHO, such combos are great for the meta: everybody is forced to think about it, and to adapt. A straightforward Khopesh/destruction/sacrifice/bounce deck is not sufficient to handle it! I had much more trouble playing against Criminal/exhaust or Denial decks, which are not the most powerful these days.

Besides, I like the fact that combo kill forces you to wait for the combo to come, which means:

1/ you are very sensitive to hand discarding cards (Twila Katherine Price is awful)

2/ some cards like the Psychologist or the Eyes in a Jar become, at last, quite useful: if your opponent simply lets you commit without doing anything during several turns, it might be the right time to begin spying his hand!

Of course, no one likes T1 wins, when your opponent cannot even play, but this is not a reliable strategy on tournament level. From T2 on, the killing combination is more and more difficult to layout. Besides, An Offer... can sometimes be impossible to get in your hand at the right moment.

Conclusion: please, do not ask for this kind of loop to be broken by an errata or a restriction: these loops make you think, they change the meta. They are good for the game.

mzi said:

Glad to see that I am not the only one thinking this!

Before complaining about the combo, at least try to build decks that can stop it! I mean, if your opponent is going for the combo...you have the chance to draw a good amount of cards!!! you are SURE that you are going to find the answer, if you have one in the deck.

I'm trying out the deck, right now, just to understand what are the best ways to stop it...I'm not a combo player, but I like having combo in the meta: it forces me to think how to use alternative cards and how to make them useful in other situations other than stopping the combo.

For example: I have never been a fan of playing Snow graves in a deck, but now it might be the time (for me, at least) to play it.

Another example: called by azatoth. It's a nice card that lately was not played too much because there were better solutions for the meta. But now, it becomes more useful!

At the time of the infamous Agency/Hastur+dog+endless interrogation deck I simply built the first version of the destroy-everything Cthulhu/Yog, and the deck was able to pull out a good number of victories (and actually granted me the Stahleck 2010 edition).

Just to say: think about solutions, before complaining!

And many pros to MZI that found and, in particular, _shared_ the combo

bye

Konx

Katja and I have been messing around with Badguys and Yog Mill/Rush and have been playing this silly combo for a week or two now.

It was neat to discover (though I guess the europeans beat us to the punch), but the combo is less than fun to play against. Mill strategy needs a boost in competitiveness, but this is a bit over the top good far too quickly.

Hard to say how to fix this in errata or restriction. I also like Chevee's idea, but as Tom said it does mess with the flavor of the syndicate card. For potential restriction purposes, I do hope it goes to An Offer You Cant Refuse instead of the Large Man. If for no other reason than too many Yog cards restricted already. Restricting both at the same time would certainly be overkill.

Let us talk by example.

Say I am in a combo-aware environment and I am playing a tournament match. The deck I have designed takes that environment into account, and I have played it against warned players. It is true that it was too easy to win agains some decks (destruction oriented ones are a joke if they do not include Pulled Under), but a *single* card change in their deck list would have changed everything.

Example 1: This is T1 and I can launch the combo, BUT my opponent has sourced any Yog, Cthulhu or Syndicate card (remember, Yog and Cthulhu are played more often than not, so this is going to be frequent). Since I do not know whether he plays a combo breaking card, I cannot afford to launch it: he would get card advantage, etc. So, playing either of these three factions efficiently protects you at tournament level, unless the player using the combo is willing to risk a lot.

Example 2: This is T2 and I can launch the combo. At T2, pretty much any faction can stop the loop with one fresh domain with 2 or more cards under it. Again, I can launch the combo, but it will be stopped (therefore, opponent gets card advantage, etc. etc.). This means that, if I want to launch the loop, I have to be able to do it TWICE in a row. Now, this becomes tricky! In fact, the combo is reliable from T2 on only if you manage to be able to re-launch it before your opponent gets his turn and efficiently secure the board. Note that a single Flux Stabilizer is a real pain.

Example 3: This is midgame (T3 and next ones) and my opponent has played Valone. I am dead. Remember combo decks have huge difficulties managing the board: they focus on getting the combo.

I believe that future competitive decks will have to be tri-faction ones, at least in order to be able to bluff! Bluff is a wonderful component of any card game. Speaking of bluff, from now on, I can play some syndicate and yog cards without even planning the combo in my deck, just to frighten my opponent, to force him NOT to drain all of his domains.

I agree that restricting both is overkill. There are several fairly clean & easy ways to solve the problem if that's what the devs want to do.

We've been assuming this is one that "slipped by" them, but perhaps it isn't. It could be a test, to see how the game and the player base handle this level of combo. If there is too much backlash, then they'll shut it down and it can easily be played off as a mistake. If players embrace it and the game doesn't break, then it opens the door to more combos in the future....

Personally, as a non-CCG player, I tend to rely on my stance on combos in miniatures games. Either a game is built for that sort of thing or it isn't. Warmachine is designed to be a combo oriented game, and it works very well. Most other minis games are not, and they work well too. When you run into problems is when you try introducing combos into games that were not designed for them. They become a special case that require specific counters to play against and not everyone has access to them. Infinity I believe fell into this trap. The base game works great, but with only a few combos in the entire game their power level disrupts the normal flow of the game unless you specifically design your list to counter them (which isn't always possible for every faction).

The interesting thing here is that CCG's in general are frequently combo games. The LCG version of Cthulhu was taken from the older CCG version and my understanding is that the combos were detuned quite a bit. There are still a lot of combos, but not on the level of this new one we've been discussing. If there's a big enough difference in combo level, that seems like it's similar to introducing combos to a game that's not really geared for them. We'll have to se how this plays out. I am pretty certain that if this combo stays as-is we'll see more combos coming in the future and the game will probably evolve at least somewhat in that direction.

Thanks to mzi for pointing out that your opponent is guaranteed to draw a counter if one exists. I don't have a good feel for how many you need, or how often it will arrive soon enough to save you from running out of cards "conventionally" later in the game anyway, but it's a good point to understand.

I don't think the problem is the combo in general, it's that you can win without your opponent even getting a turn. If there is no change, you are forcing people to play certain factions unless specific cards are designed.

I like playing mono Miskatonic decks. I think it's a lot of fun, but now it's pointless to play in a tournament. Is that really how FFG wants their game to be played?

I'm not a game designer, but it seems like a bad idea to force every player in a tournament to design their deck around making sure you don't lose before you get a turn.