First Founding Feedback?

By Blood Pact, in Deathwatch

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Gokerz said:

Pallomides said:

Whats the fluff on the Raven Guard like?

They are now much more surly and taciturn than in older descriptions, being much less likeable as persons. They also now like to keep their presence a secret even from their own side (even other Space Marines), which is roughly as idiotic as it sounds, making force coordination on the battlefield all but impossible and screwing up everything. They are thus intensely disliked by many imperial commanders.

Interesting elements of the Raven Guard like the fierce independence their companies tend to show and the cool character quirk where it doesn't matter what rank you are or how long you have served, you are afforded equal respect by a Raven Guard when you speak your mind, are completly ignored.

It describes their tendency to be highly analytic in their approach to warfare, but instead of representing this by giving a bonus to int, they get a bonus to perception with no explanation what part of their character this fits. Their chapter advances also completly ignore anything that isn't about *stealthy*.

Their tendency to use basically only the MKVI armor (the one with the beakie helmet) is also ignored and not supported by the rules.

Basically, the writeup sucks and the most of the coolest elements of the chapter have been swapped with "loool, we so stealthyyy and grimdark, we no talk to u!!!".

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HappyDaze said:

Where does your information on the Raven Guard come from? I was unaware of much about this Chapter until reading FF, so I'd like to see some of what you're talking about.

There aren't many sources of information on Raven Guard. Mostly Imperial Armour Volume IV & VIII and some basic info in the Space Marine codices (especially 4th and 5th edition get quoted these days).

There are also some Black Library books that have Raven Guard appearing: Cadian Blood, Raven's Flight, Chapter's Due and Hunt for Voldorius.

The two wikis have compiled most of the info.

That big rivalry with the White Scars was made up for Hunt for Voldorius, there is no source outside that Black Library book and now First Founding to support it. It makes the White Scars look a bit too stupid and over the top gloryhound-like IMO. So best to take it with a grain of salt.

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Gokerz said:

That big rivalry with the White Scars was made up for Hunt for Voldorius, there is no source outside that Black Library book and now First Founding to support it.

Actually, it first appeared in Codex: Space Marines, which also first described the battles later detailed in Hunt for Voldorius.

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Siranui said:

bluntpencil2001 said:

Artificer Armour (May pick both histories)

Why's that? Unless you allow every player to cherry pick histories, it's incongruous don't you think?

Raven Guard fluff looks good. I enjoyed reading it, though there is only a couple of pages. The Chapter advances obviously help you build ninja marines who can sneak about remarkably well. There's an interesting Chapter trapping that gives 'free XP' to the party, which will make RG popular with parties, though the trapping does effectively take all the others off the board.

Oh yeah... silent shotguns too.

It's largely so that the player can pick the one that causes Fear straight off the bat, should they wish to, in order to best represent Death Masks. Not ideal, really.

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I like the adventure. It has some cool locations and neat action sequences, and I like the dynamic where you have four Marine factions (including the PCs) none of whom are officially in charge.

Good stuff.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

Gokerz said:

That big rivalry with the White Scars was made up for Hunt for Voldorius, there is no source outside that Black Library book and now First Founding to support it.

Actually, it first appeared in Codex: Space Marines, which also first described the battles later detailed in Hunt for Voldorius.

Oh right, that part was originally written by Matt Ward.

Always good to see FFG use Ward quality fluff over alternatives.

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bluntpencil2001 said:

It's largely so that the player can pick the one that causes Fear straight off the bat, should they wish to, in order to best represent Death Masks. Not ideal, really.

That seems a bit unnecessary, since the Death Mask is a piece of Wargear in First Founding. Granted, it gives the same +1 to Fear Rating, but it's got a separate entry, so giving them the +1 Fear history automatically doesn't make much sense.

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Gaire said:

bluntpencil2001 said:

It's largely so that the player can pick the one that causes Fear straight off the bat, should they wish to, in order to best represent Death Masks. Not ideal, really.

That seems a bit unnecessary, since the Death Mask is a piece of Wargear in First Founding. Granted, it gives the same +1 to Fear Rating, but it's got a separate entry, so giving them the +1 Fear history automatically doesn't make much sense.

I totally missed that item. Whoops.

Right, so, yeah, give them Artificer Armour and Winged Jump Packs.

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Gokerz said:

Oh right, that part was originally written by Matt Ward.

Always good to see FFG use Ward quality fluff over alternatives.

Oh, you're one of those people, and just when I thought your complaints couldn't get more stupid.

What did you expect them to get for the Beakie armour, some kind of special talent, or having it as standard equip? Cause you don't have to do anything special to get it remember, so I see no reason to waste one **** word talking about it.

Likewise Perception ties in to being analytical, though admitedly not as much as Intelligence, as you can't properly formulate a plan without knowing everything that's going on.

Also, the Raven Guard ARE a very stealthy Astartes Chapter, so of course their advances chart is going to be loaded up like that. They've always been pretty heavy on the guerilla style of warfare anyway, they just approach it in an anayltical way (which isn't really something we need rules for).

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Blood Pact said:

Gokerz said:

Oh right, that part was originally written by Matt Ward.

Always good to see FFG use Ward quality fluff over alternatives.

Oh, you're one of those people, and just when I thought your complaints couldn't get more stupid.

Looking back I decided to leave it at the posts I made because I fully admit I am slowly decending into nerdrage. Which, while the Raven Guard chapter isn't good, it doesn't deserve.

That the thinskinned fanboy-brigade are already arriving to call my arguments stupid because I dared make some criticisms (well, in the first post, I after that I admit I got too nerdrage-y) seems a good indicator that's the right decision.

Have fun.

P.s. please try to actually read my posts next time. I never said Raven Guard aren't stealthy. I said there is a lot beyond being stealthy to them that the chapter mostly ignores or leaves out.

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Gokerz said:

P.s. please try to actually read my posts next time. I never said Raven Guard aren't stealthy. I said there is a lot beyond being stealthy to them that the chapter mostly ignores or leaves out.

There is. But to be fair, they only have a page and a half in which to give a brief outline of the entire Chapter to people who may never heard of them. I think it does a good job, given that limitation. I also can't blame FF for -when writing a game for GW, under their IP- using the most up-to-date source material (even if it is by Ward), rather than sticking their fingers in their ears and saying 'lalalala We Can't Hear You Matt'. There are more than enough nods to material that's 20 years old for them to let them off using up to date canon where appropriate, in my mind.

We have all read far more about 'our' favourite Chapters than is presented in DW. We have also already mentally selected from amongst that probably conflicting material about them the version that we prefer and chosen to filter out other parts. Given DW's pitching low to inform those new to the game and the lack of space, and the fairness that they must treat Chapters in relation to each other, it's inevitable that *whichever* Chapter we favour, we'll probably dislike what has been said about it or mechanically implemented. Likewise we can all think of another ten talents/skills that 'should' be on the talent list, but can't really be for reasons of balance with other Chapters.

Does it matter how much background about the Chapter has been missed out if you're the one playing the character and you know the background? Clearly not.

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There's always going to be bits of the canon that don't exactly float everyone's boat: it's a huge setting, with dozens of different writers working on it. In my experience, the best way to deal with it is to take the rough with the smooth, moan a little bit about stuff you don't like on forums, and wait five or six years for the reworked background that accompanies a new codex/novel. Usually, anything one really hates about the setting tends to get mitigated or sidetracked in later work.

Generally speaking, GW do a fairly good job of reconciling old fluff with new fluff. Forgeworld in particular are very strong at this, producing models (like the new rapier laser destroyer ) that pay homage to models and background from the late '80s while seamlessly updating them to work well with more recent developments in the background.

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Gokerz said:

Looking back I decided to leave it at the posts I made because I fully admit I am slowly decending into nerdrage. Which, while the Raven Guard chapter isn't good, it doesn't deserve.

That the thinskinned fanboy-brigade are already arriving to call my arguments stupid because I dared make some criticisms (well, in the first post, I after that I admit I got too nerdrage-y) seems a good indicator that's the right decision.

Have fun.

P.s. please try to actually read my posts next time. I never said Raven Guard aren't stealthy. I said there is a lot beyond being stealthy to them that the chapter mostly ignores or leaves out.

Never mind, Blood Pact is like that, nothing tied to you or the subject in particular.

That said, the Raven Guard sound like the See but don't be Seen Trait Advantage had been applied to them. But that's what the Blood Ravens should be like. Instead the RG should be getting melee bonuses because of Blessed Be The Warriors and No Mercy, No Respite. And here we might have the reason for why they don't have that: they'd be yet another melee chapter.

Alex

PS As I had predicted, the Raven Guard get pretty much the "opposite" of the SW's Wolf Senses for Solo Mode. **** good thing too.

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ak-73 said:

PS As I had predicted, the Raven Guard get pretty much the "opposite" of the SW's Wolf Senses for Solo Mode. **** good thing too.

Yup. Kinda saw that coming. But I never saw Wolf scouts pulling stealth checks from their Perception stat and raking in all the Wolf Senses advantages with stealth checks coming!

Every Chapter has to get a bit stereotyped and pigeon-holed in order to make them unique. Sometimes that comes at the cost of combat uberness, or some other aspect of the Chapter is glossed over.

***

Really liking a lot of the new Solo modes, oaths and patterns. The Oaths in particular give a real 'feel' for the team-leaders Chapter, when they use them. The Imperial Fist one offering a *Fate Point* for the duration is interesting. For when you really, really need to assault a Titan and don't want to die, accept no substitutes!

I also like the way that First Founding Chapters now have an edge over newer ones, both in the new Modes and with the amazingly generously priced relics (Salamander Cloak, anyone?). After RoB it was looking like 'new' Chapters could be better than their founders at times. I do like the obvious cost breaks on some iconic relics, and all obvious bases have been covered. Disappointed not to see a few more banners, though.

Hellfire flamer, anyone?

I wonder when the 'new' Chapters will be picking up their second tranche of abilities, to bring them into line with the 'original' first founding chapters. Hopefully FFG will be really generous, and will provide them in a Web Supplement. That'd be nice of them [Hint!].

Surprised not to see a few chapter-unique Deeds of some kind, but I'm not complaining, given the amount of crunch already present in the tome.

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ak-73 said:

Never mind, Blood Pact is like that, nothing tied to you or the subject in particular.

I could comment on your reasoning, two threads over, mister... but I won't.

And it had plenty to do with the subject matter, when that subject matter includes such rampant stupidity as " it sucks JUST BECAUSE it was written by Ward ". After dealing with a certain unnamed party's batshit insanity for so long, I have little patience for nonsense like this.

And yes, you said there's a lot beyond strealthiness to the Raven Guard... and didn't cover one lick of it as an example, save for mentioning a preference for beakie armour (which adds what to the chapter?) and being "analytical", which I already mentioned fits in with their Perception bonus.

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Blood Pact said:

ak-73 said:

Never mind, Blood Pact is like that, nothing tied to you or the subject in particular.

I could comment on your reasoning, two threads over, mister... but I won't.

Be my guest.

Blood Pact said:

And it had plenty to do with the subject matter,

What does it have to do with the content of your post vis-a-vis the form of it?

Blood Pact said:

when that subject matter includes such rampant stupidity as " it sucks JUST BECAUSE it was written by Ward ". After dealing with a certain unnamed party's batshit insanity for so long, I have little patience for nonsense like this.

I don't give a **** about your patience of lack of it.

Blood Pact said:

And yes, you said there's a lot beyond strealthiness to the Raven Guard... and didn't cover one lick of it as an example, save for mentioning a preference for beakie armour (which adds what to the chapter?) and being "analytical", which I already mentioned fits in with their Perception bonus.

As mentioned, it will impact any eventual design of Blood Ravens and their See but don't be Seen. Should have gotten rid of Per and added WS or even better yet some other custom melee bonus.

Alex

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Regarding the Raven Guard, their background presented in First Founding makes Captain Shrike appear very unusual for the Raven Guard, whereas I had previously seen him as the ideal Raven Guard. He, being a hero to the common people of the Imperium, going against the heartless machinery of Imperial bureaucracy, is also going against his own Chapter, it seems.

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I could see the Chapter not caring about his reputation as long as he got results. And he does.

Astartes like Shrike often end up becoming Chapter Master, some day.

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bluntpencil2001 said:

Regarding the Raven Guard, their background presented in First Founding makes Captain Shrike appear very unusual for the Raven Guard, whereas I had previously seen him as the ideal Raven Guard. He, being a hero to the common people of the Imperium, going against the heartless machinery of Imperial bureaucracy, is also going against his own Chapter, it seems.

How did you come to that conclusion? I just read the Raven Guard part of the book last week and I do not see the conflict...

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Siranui said:

Really liking a lot of the new Solo modes, oaths and patterns. The Oaths in particular give a real 'feel' for the team-leaders Chapter, when they use them. The Imperial Fist one offering a *Fate Point* for the duration is interesting. For when you really, really need to assault a Titan and don't want to die, accept no substitutes!

The Fists had some good stuff, but their RoB writeup is still very lacking even with the new stuff on top. Also, two whole Squad Modes with components involving ignoring Fear and Pinning. Really, it's that big of an issue to Astartes? Puh-lease. The bonus Fate is cool, but the Rank 1 effects of the Squad Modes between RoB and FF are terribly redundant.

Siranui said:

I also like the way that First Founding Chapters now have an edge over newer ones, both in the new Modes and with the amazingly generously priced relics (Salamander Cloak, anyone?). After RoB it was looking like 'new' Chapters could be better than their founders at times. I do like the obvious cost breaks on some iconic relics, and all obvious bases have been covered. Disappointed not to see a few more banners, though.

Are you referring specifically to the BTs/Wardens or also to general Successor Chapters? In terms of the latter, they at least in theory (per RoB) get all the new Mode options and possibly even wargear. If you're referring specifically to the BTs and Storm Wardens, I'm inclined to agree, but I'm also fine just giving the Storm Wardens options from the White Scars, if they're not officially their successors, they fit very well for rule overlap IMO.

Also the Raven Guard got literally 2 pieces of wargear (one of which, the silenced shotgun, is really meh overall), while the Blood Angels got 6. Really?!

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Watch-Captain Albus said:

bluntpencil2001 said:

Regarding the Raven Guard, their background presented in First Founding makes Captain Shrike appear very unusual for the Raven Guard, whereas I had previously seen him as the ideal Raven Guard. He, being a hero to the common people of the Imperium, going against the heartless machinery of Imperial bureaucracy, is also going against his own Chapter, it seems.

How did you come to that conclusion? I just read the Raven Guard part of the book last week and I do not see the conflict...

The First Founding book makes the Raven Guard seem aloof and cold, willing to use allies as bait. Kayvaan Shrike is known for rescuing allies that have been deemed not worth saving. Ignoring such people would go along entirely with the description in FF. Kayvaan Shrike does not seem the 'heartless' sort of space marine.

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Its just me but I had hoped that the First Founding would shed more light on the basic 'classes' of marines. As it had promised more material on the first founding chapters.

I expected more background information exploring the operations of the Techmarines, Librarius, Apothecaries, Tactical and assault marines. Besides the write up featured in the core book, which seems very generic. Also, the variances of practices amongst the different chapters like comparing a Blood Angel Sanguinary Priest and your regular 'nilla Ultra Apo. Or a Dark Angel Chaplain to a Black Templar Reclusiach.

Anyone else having similar expectations as mine or will this be covered in a subsequent supplement?

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I liked the First Founding book a lot, but I had hoped to see some special classes for the other First Founding chapters. Like firedrake veterans and masters of the forge for the Salamanders chapter, or stormseers for the White Scars ...

Perhaps in a next supplement?

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Deepstriker said:

Its just me but I had hoped that the First Founding would shed more light on the basic 'classes' of marines. As it had promised more material on the first founding chapters.

I expected more background information exploring the operations of the Techmarines, Librarius, Apothecaries, Tactical and assault marines. Besides the write up featured in the core book, which seems very generic. Also, the variances of practices amongst the different chapters like comparing a Blood Angel Sanguinary Priest and your regular 'nilla Ultra Apo. Or a Dark Angel Chaplain to a Black Templar Reclusiach.

Anyone else having similar expectations as mine or will this be covered in a subsequent supplement?

I didn't really expect to see that at all. I suggest you check out Lexicanum or the 40 wikia for that sort of info.

What I did expect was more new stuff for the other First Founding chapters than we actually got. The book seemed like it was supposed to be about them, but they each got less word count dedicated to them than the Core Chapters did.