If the Doom Track is completely full, but the Abhoth Sinister Plot card drawn in Final Battle says to add 3 more doom tokens, then what happens?

I'm under the impression that the doom track can never go above the shown maximum, unless an effect explicitly states so (Rhan-Tegoth's Cultist ability, for example).

Tibs said:

MyNeighbourTrololo said:

Yeah, I didn't see that one coming either.

Tibs said:

Yeah, I'm with them. Why can't you just toss three more Doom Tokens on the sheet, Tibs? Investigators get to add to their maxes all the time--okay, maybe a bit rarer than that--simply by adding hearts and brains at the behest of a card. How is Abhoth's Plot card any different than that?

What happened to Arkham's Razor, man?!?

jgt7771 said:

I think Arkham's Razor got blunted once Lurker was released as a herald ;'D

For the same reason when a card says you gain stamina, and you're at your max, you don't actually gain any stamina.

Tibs said:

Thank you Tibs. I guessed the other way & added the 3 doom tokens to Abhoth. When my last investigator was devoured, there were just 3 doom tokens left on his track. That's why I asked the question. Now I'm happy to go back & claim a hard-fought victory. Hopefully, no one thinks that's unethical ---- I believe it's fair.

I don't subscribe to Arkham's Razor. I choose what's most thematic, unless it causes problematic implications or major issues with mechanics.

MyNeighbourTrololo said:

I don't know why you're surprised. I've told you before, I don't choose what's hardest on the investigators, I choose what's most thematic, or least exploitable, which usually makes things harder—but not always.

Nope, not buyin' it.

Abhoth's "The Children" Epic Battle card: "Abhoth gains 1 doom token for each Child of Abhoth not on its Ancient One sheet, then attacks as normal."

Rhan-Tegoth's Start of Battle: "Rhan-Tegoth gains two extra doom tokens for each Cultist on this sheet."

So what you're telling me is that because Rhan says "extra", Abhoth gets short-changed, even though Esto has shown that it is entirely possible to have Abhoth +3 a few seconds after Start of Battle conditions have been executed.

Uh, no. Once again, backwards compatibility sucks. First came Abhoth, and there was no problem. Then came Kingsport, and amusingly, this situation never came up on the boards. Then came Rhan, and since his Start of Battle will OBVIOUSLY be adding Doom Tokens past 11, FFG decided to put in words that mattered. But because no one at FFG knew that Abhoth would EVER be in this situation three YEARS prior, Abhoth gets the stick.

As for theme...Abhoth's Children are separate from the Ancient One. Just like Rhan's Cultists. Why could they not just "become" more (extra!) doom tokens for their ever-growing shapeless master?

Not buyin' it...certainly not just because Tibs says so. Sometimes, Rules Guru Tibs is...just another Player.

I'm open to suggestion, of course. I tried to make it seem like I wasn't 100% sure on the matter. The fact that the last space is referred to as the "end" and that the doom track is always "filled" when the AO awakens implies that it is the maximum.

jgt7771 said:

No, I'm saying that Rhan gets them because that's the obvious interpretation. It doesn't make sense to cap him because that would mean that the "add two" is meaningless.

Yes, it makes sense that if those doom tokens count as children, they wouldn't be limited by the maximum. That's a fine interpretation.

Instead, you could say that doom tokens are never limited by the end of the doom track unless explicitly stated.

jgt7771: I'm afraid you assertion that Rhan was the first to mess up Abhoth's day is incorrect; Eihort can have doom tokens added at the beginning of and during final battle, and his sheet actually says "Eihort can exceed 12 doom tokens on his doom track." I'd say that's a pretty clear indication that The Children shouldn't let Abhoth exceed his track, since it was in the same expansion as Eihort. Heck, if you want to go even earlier, Cthulhu specifies that he can't exceed his doom track.

Walk said:

I guess the big question is... which of these is the exception, and which of these is the redundant clarification?

It could be that Start of Battle effects are exceptions to the maximum rule, but nothing else is unless explicitly stated.

Theme is not a good enough indicator: Abhoth's children and Rhan-Tegoth's cultists offer doom tokens as a Sinister Plot card, so they should thematically go above maximum; however, the generic Epic Battle card where you see the creature's wounds close, thematically, should not.

There's a few more Epic Battle cards that add Doom Tokens to Ancient Ones: including the ones you've already mentioned, there's Shub, Zhar, and Shudde. Only Eihort says "can exceed", but we assume that Rhan's "extra" fulfills the same purpose (because nothing else makes sense). However, by reasoning above, there is nothing on Rhan's sheet to allow his Doom-Token-raising Sinister Plot to exceed 11. So either A) Rhan only gets an initial boost, which frankly makes his Sinister Plot look wimpy, or B) Rhan behaves like Eihort, adding one more phantom clause to his increasingly inaccurate sheet (thanks so much, Michael). I suppose I'm okay with either, but not extending the same courtesy to the other Ancient Ones kinda sucks.

As for Cthulhu's Kingsport Epic Battle cards...y'all know what I think of backwards compatability. I have NO problem taking Cthulhu past 13.

Suit yourself. But, quite frankly, if there's an Ancient One who does not need help in final combat, it's Abhoth.

Not entirely sure what you mean by the bit about Cthulhu's Epic Battle cards, though. You mean Unnatural Regeneration should let him go over 13?

Walk said:

Sure. Depends on how you look at it. "Cthulhu gains 3 doom tokens instead of 1 after attacking this round." Doesn't say anything about stopping at 13 if you put the whole card into effect after C's attack. Of course, if you just wedge the "3" into the Regeneration clause on C's sheet, then you would stop at 13. But then he didn't gain 3 doom tokens, did he? No "Up to 3" clause either.

Either way, something is going to be ignored: C's Sheet or the Epic card. I think the card overrides any upper limit on a Doom Track.

For Unnatural Regeneration, it says instead of 1. The only thing this can possibly be referring to is his regular "gain 1" ability, which is specifically capped at 13. Therefore, U.R. should be capped at 13. Besides, it's "regeneration," not "growth." How can he heal damage that hasn't been dealt to him?

Tibs said:

Because it's unnatural?

So it didn't say "up to 3 doom tokens" why?

And I don't see anything on Abhoth, Shub, Zhar, or Shudde that says "if it isn't already full."

(I'm really not trying to be difficult. But it seems that only one hole in the dam can be plugged at once, and there are too many holes.)

jgt7771 said:

i'd say the card is indicating "do as usual but with three doom tokens instead" and it'll stop when full, not go beyond.

how do you do when you've only inflited e.g. 1 hit on a 3-investigator-game, do you generate that one hit (a third of a doom token) or none? the ancient one card does say to put one doom token if it isn't already full, and you should remove them after X hits (where X is # investigators).

go for intent* and not exactly what's written. it's regeneration, but with 3. that's the unnatural part of it. nothing with cthulhu is natural, but if his regular abilities were considered natural, then three-times-the-regeneration surely is unnatural, without it being a become-stronger ability.

* this is my interpretation of intent at least.