To whomever can answer this question: please help! It's set off quite a bit of dialogue on the BGG forums. An official ruling would be greatly appreciated. Here is the link to the question: www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/725099/meneldors-flight-and-vassal-of-the-windlord/page/1

Thanks!

You know, you could go to the bottom of this page, click on Rules Questions and send in your question directly. Unless you are looking for a direct answer on BGG.

I have done so with a question about escapet test about two weeks ago. So far no response. Maybe they have not figured that one out yet though. It is about Sneaking Eomund and readying characters for the test when he leaves, just if he leaves in time...

Really? I'm disappointed to hear that, let's hope it is an exception, not the rule.

Btw, on your question, my guess is that since Gollum's effect is forced, it would take precedence over Sneak Attack's, therefore not allowing for the Eomund combo to take place. I do hope you get a response on that soon.

Before, I have got an immediate answer. It may be that the questions have accumulated to an extend that they become a serious trouble. I feel though that the answer is not yet clear to the designer. It really is a complicated matter, I think, which concerns so many cards. And "at the end of the phase" is not very clear, rule-wise.

I am not sure how to play it. I will play Meneldor's Flight so that it can be used on the Vassal or the Guardian, until being told otherwise by the designer (which will likely happen even though my understanding goes against it).

I've submitted two questions and both times had very quick responses - within a couple days.

My last question was submitted last week and I recieved no answer for the moment...

Well, I can imagine why the answer is taking so long. In order to answer it they have to come up with an entire new rule segment, which needs to be carefully worded & evaluated.

The problem arises because the game doesnt use a stack for damage as MtG used to. Determing combat damage and applying combat damage is all clumped up in one turn. So where does the combat damage come from? From the combined attack value of the heroes (6.3.1.3). However, this does not apply damage since in the next phase you have to check for the combined attack power again. 6.3.1.3 is basically useless***, it should have been

step: determine combat damage (combined attack vs armor) and place damage on stack) (play actions) < use meneldors flight here)

step: resolve combat damage (play actions)

In order to allow the combo to work in current framing of rules there would have to be rule that clarifies that THE COMBINED ATTACK VALUE from 6.3.1.3 carries over to 6.3.1.4 WITHOUT checking for its source.

They obviously dont have an answer to that question ready and still need to sort it out. How it will turn out is beyond me. Im pretty sure that one the one hand they want streamlined rules that are easy to understand. WotC changed its combat damage rules for that reasons sine it was just confusing at times. On the other hand though, Meneldors flight, while beeing designed as a boomerang, just doenst work under the current ruling. This card basically says +1 Gandalf and not much more. Its only effect is to rescue characters from "when revealed" effects (which is ridicules since you cant respond with an attachment. You have to play it beforehand and hope it ever does something uesefull) or abusing their "come into play" effect.

Also note the expandable nature of 6.3.1.3 (see below). This leads me towards believing that attack value might indeed be stacked & carried over.

*** its got no other value than restricting player actions. In order to buff an attacker you would have to do it in 6.3.1.3. But since 6.3.1.4 does not allow any alteration of enemy defense stats whatsoever 6.3.1.3 is entirely useless.

UnthoughtKnown said:

Meneldor's Flight returns eagle cards to hand. It cannot work with Gandalf. Maybe you meant Born Aloft? Either way, I agree it seems to me these cards are designed to bounce something like Descendant of Thorondor, with his coming in play and going out of play effects. In the case of Vassal of the Windlord, I would say it doesn't work either, as his effect is forced and would take precedence. Also, it must resolve after the attack he participated in, therefore any end of phase effects would come too late for him.

May be slower response this time of year simply because it's there may be folks out of the office for US Thanksgiving.

Titan said:

Yeah I was mixing it up.

Titan said:

See the BGG thread about Meneldor's Flight. Allan explains why it should work and I find it hard to find logic that would argue against it. Even though I fear it was not meant for the combo to work.

lleimmoen said:

Actually, what is strange - or it might be on purpose - is that the enemy and player's attack breakdown are different, as shown in pages 18 and 20 of the rulebook. In both cases, Actions can be played at the end (and even restricting to only the "end" may be an error) of attack resolution steps. However, when the enemy attacks, determining combat damage and deal damage is one step. It is uninterrupted, atomic. On the other hand, when player attacks, attack strength and determining/applying damage are separate, therefore allowing to do actions that change character conditions between these two steps, without affecting the calculated attack strength.

Furthermore, when enemy attacks, if a defending character leaves play before damage is assigned, then the attack is undefended. Conversely, there is not this restriction when player is attacking. The pendent should say that if a character is removed before combat damage is assigned, attack strength is reduced in accordance. But there is no rule sa such.

This asymetry in resolving attacks might be by design though.

I have read it, and while I understand his point of view, I simply cannot agree with it. I don't think there is a window between attack resolution and the forced effect of a card that triggers off it. I could see it working if step 2 was resolved and the Vassal did not have to stick around for step 3. But I don't see how step 2 is resolution, step 3 is. Some guidance on this is that if a defender leaves play before damage is assigned, the attack is considered undefended. You could then argue that if an attacking character leaves play before damage is assigned, his attack, likewise, does not count. As this would be the final step, the forced effect would trigger immediately after it.

Titan said:

That is exactly what I pointed out in my previous post. But although the first point is explicit in the rules, the second is a pure speculation.

Titan said:

This is correct, but here it is irrelevant. The problem is that, as per the rules, you may remove an attacker through actions before assigning damage and thus resolving the attack completely, and still keep the same attack strength. Otherwise, why have they split step 2 and step 3? What is the point here to allow actions to interrupt attack strength determination and damage assignation? And specifically, what is the point of Meneldor's Flight?

zeb said:

Thats what I was trying to point out in my clusterfucked post above. If damage doesnt take over from step 2 to 3 (while ignoring the source) there simply is no application for step 2 whatsoever. They could as well be merged.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but step 3 talks about the combined damage of all the attacking characters. Can a character be out of play and still be considered to be "attacking"? While nothing specifically prevents this, it seems counterintuitive. Then again, the ruling on Stand and Fight seems completely counterintuitive to me without a change to it's text.

It may also be that these two steps are separated for further clarification. In this game, attack values are constantly being modified. They use one step to clearly delineate what the total amount of damage you can deal is, and the next to determine how that amount is modified as per the enemy's defense value and any effects it may have. Since, as opposed to enemies, you can attack one target with multiple characters, they may have felt the need for an extra step. This is all, of course, pure speculation on my part.

Titan said:

You may be right here. However, in that case:

• what is the point of making the player calculate the attack strength separately, if it has to be calculated again in step 3? But you are right that if it were intended that attackers can leave attack between steps 2 and 3, without penalty, then rules should clearly say for step 3 to use the value calculated in step 2.
• what is the point of Meneldor's Flight?

This needs to be clarified by Nate and his team, but they are probably having a slice of turkey at the moment

Hi, is there still no answer from Nate regarding this question?

I have received an answer from Nate and made a thread.

Hope this helps.