The list of things that increase your corruption score seems fairly thin and easily avoidable. My worry is that even setting the threshold at 100 for Infamy, it doesn't seem like it's really going to be a problem to avoid gaining too much Corruption.
Has anyone else felt this way and what have you done to move things along
I am also running into this problem. Corruption is not a worry at all! In fact I have some players brainstorming how they can gain more to actually get gifts.
Firstly, it's pretty easy to accumulate Corruption by rituals, as 1d5 is handed out to every participant. If you wish to summon a squad of bloodletters, better find a ritual that summons them all in one go - and have it performed by someone else.
Other than that, I think it's mainly the question of how easy the GM makes the games. If there's a realistic chance for the characters to fail and survive, botching a compact, they get Corruption for failures - up to 1D10+1D5+5 for a dedicated one. Once they get near a Gift threshold, they might (quite realistically) try to gain more Corruption in order to placate their deity and be in their good grace once the mutation arrives rather than "earn" it with another failure.
It just seems like the list of actions that garners Corruption points is very short. I feel like there should be everyday kind of behaviors that accrue it as well, things PCs would want to do. Gaining it for failing seems like kicking them while they're down.
I think I'm going to come up with a list of basic behaviors that gains you Corruption points, but I worry about punishing them for playing Chaos characters the way they should be played. Things that would gain a DH/RT/DW character Corruption points might more sense to gain a BC character Infamy.
Did a little reading on Chaos Spawn and actually I'm starting to think that the same things that would earn you Infamy are the same things that would gain Corruption. My thought is to have both Infamy and Corruption added together and when that total hits 100, you make an Infamy test to see if you become a Daemon or a Chaos Spawn.
Thoughts?
BeyondFandom said:
Did a little reading on Chaos Spawn and actually I'm starting to think that the same things that would earn you Infamy are the same things that would gain Corruption. My thought is to have both Infamy and Corruption added together and when that total hits 100, you make an Infamy test to see if you become a Daemon or a Chaos Spawn.
Thoughts?
In short, the reason corruption accumulates so slowly is because when it reaches 100, the character is gone. Preferably, a pc should be able to participate and grow in the game for a sizable amount of time without being removed. Ergo, the accumulation is slow to allow for a single character to remain viable through an entire campaign. This is also why introducing "everyday" tasks that give corruption is perhaps not the best idea. It hastens character death, basically.
If you want, you can certainly increase corruption gains significantly, but this will reduce the lifespan of PC's unless you counter it by increasing the necessary corruption totals or just ignoring the whole "Princehood or Spawndom" rule.
BeyondFandom said:
The list of things that increase your corruption score seems fairly thin and easily avoidable. My worry is that even setting the threshold at 100 for Infamy, it doesn't seem like it's really going to be a problem to avoid gaining too much Corruption.
Has anyone else felt this way and what have you done to move things along
The problem isn't gaining too much Corruption... it's losing Infamy. Corruption just goes up and up and up, and while it often does so slowly, it's progress is one-way (unless you're using the optional rules for removing Corruption from the GM's Toolkit). Infamy can (and will) go down as well as up, and especially once you've gotten beyond 40 Infamy (at which point, you can no longer simply purchase it), it goes up far more slowly than it can go down (you can gain a maximum of 5 Infamy per session... you can lose 1d10+10 for dying, or 1d10+8 if you still want to be in the fight, at the risk of dying again in the same fight).
Imagine a character at 98 Corruption and 99 Infamy - it's been a long, torturous journey to reach that point, but you're well on your way to Apotheosis... and then you falter. At the moment of triumph, the Eversor Assassin the Corpse-God's lackeys sent after you has managed to fell you, and you slink away to your fortress of torment to lick your wounds... suddenly, you're perhaps 15 Infamy from your goal, but your Corruption remains the same... in fact, you might even have gained Corruption from a Failing as a result of your defeat... and at that point, Spawndom awaits, not Apotheosis, because you've got to go a minimum of three more game sessions earning Infamy without accumulating more Corruption or you're doomed to dribble, honk and snarl at the whims of the Chaos Gods for all eternity.
you can gain a maximum of 5 Infamy per session...
Where is this maximum of 5 infamy per session rule mentioned? Compacts easily deal out more than that on even their most basic level, without even touching upon the bigger ones. Are they exempt from this cap in such a case?
Reverend mort said:
Yep, that was the point.
Reverend mort
said:
The latter, that you track them apart, but when they total 100 together you make the check. And yes, you have to balance the two so your corruption doesn't get too high and make the check impossibly hard. I also plan on using the optional rule to be able to buy off Corruption.
You guys mention several times about how it's slow to allow for longer campaigns, which is fine, but as I stated, I want shorter campaigns. Maybe my problem is that I posted this in the "Rules" section and not the "House Rules".
I just noticed that apparently I hadn't mentioned about wanting shorter campaigns... Weird, sorry I could have sworn I said that in my OP.
Reverend mort said:
you can gain a maximum of 5 Infamy per session...
Where is this maximum of 5 infamy per session rule mentioned? Compacts easily deal out more than that on even their most basic level, without even touching upon the bigger ones. Are they exempt from this cap in such a case?
Sidebar, top of page 290. It specifically covers the Infamy-gaining actions on page 289-290, though, so Compacts are exempt.
Having Ascension or Spawndom hinge on a single die roll seems like a horrible mechanic to me and is essentially what most people feared when the article on Apotheosis came out.
Gaining it for failing seems like kicking them while they're down.
Yup, that's exactly the point. Now you too can feel that wonderful "You have failed me..." scene when the Henchman stands in front of his boss after getting his arse kicked by the hero.
BeyondFandom said:
You guys mention several times about how it's slow to allow for longer campaigns, which is fine, but as I stated, I want shorter campaigns. Maybe my problem is that I posted this in the "Rules" section and not the "House Rules".
If you want a shorter campaign, why not make one that doesn't end in either Apotheosis or Spawndom? Just because it's the overarching theme of the game doesn't mean it has to be the overarching theme of every single game you run.
Alternately, if you really want the story to end with characters being judged and awarded/destroyed by the gods, introduce a plot element that will send them over the 100 Corruption threshold at the right time - something like Maledictum in Dawn of War series.
N0-1_H3r3 said:
Reverend mort said:
you can gain a maximum of 5 Infamy per session...
Where is this maximum of 5 infamy per session rule mentioned? Compacts easily deal out more than that on even their most basic level, without even touching upon the bigger ones. Are they exempt from this cap in such a case?
Sidebar, top of page 290. It specifically covers the Infamy-gaining actions on page 289-290, though, so Compacts are exempt.
Appreciated! But I have to say, with the infamy you can collect from a compact, regaining that lost infamy can go a whole lot quicker than a minimum of 3 sessions.
How quickly do you go through Compacts (serious question)? I would imagine an Undertaking to take at least those three sessions...
Keep in mind that there are a tonne of corruption increasing effects in the book. They're just spread out.
Character Creation items (eg, Disgraces, Sorcerer/Psyker)
Page 143:
Surviving Possession
Page 165:
Zealous hatred with a Fang Dagger
Page 182:
Using various drugs. Blue Fire/D-Dust etc.
Page 210:
Various Psychic Phenomena.
Page 214:
Being struck with certain psychic powers. (Host of Fiends, Bolt of Change)
Page 272:
Completing *or* Failing a compact.
Page 289:
Killing a hero of the imperium in one on one combat
Participating in a Ritual
Defiling a sacred location of Imperial Creed (also +Infamy)
Being *present* at the summoning of a Greater Daemon.
Sowing doubt in a large number of the Emperors followers.
Embracing Chaos actions (specific to a god). (3 different types each).
Page 290:
Failing a compact's primary objective.
Being defeated in combat by a hero of the Imperium
Failing the chaos powers (specific to a god)
Page 298:
Failing a 'Warp Eater" roll.
Page 308:
Preventing death by spending Infamy.
There are others, but this list took me only a few minutes to compile.
There are a fair number of ways, but they all seem like ones that I would have to go out of my way to write into a story just for the sake of the players to gain Corruption.
Cifer said:
Yup, that's exactly the point. Now you too can feel that wonderful "You have failed me..." scene when the Henchman stands in front of his boss after getting his arse kicked by the hero.
That's where we differ, I'd rather have one "aww ****" moment at the end of the campaign than to repeatedly penalize my players throughout it. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
As for why not run a shorter game that doesn't include Apothesis/Spawndom in it? Because I want to include those factors, that should be reason enough. I honestly don't ever see running Black Crusade long term, but I still want to allow my players the chance to rocket to power, or crash and burn, as the case may turn out. Like I said, beyond my original post, this probably should have been taken to house rules, rather than continued here.
FYI, if anyone cares, the change I've gone with that suits my game needs is now as follows;
There is still a little of the uncertainty factor in that you'll never be sure at the end of the session how many points of each score will be gained.