After a 2+ month hiatus (blame Kennon and his pregnancy!) we are back!

Come listen here as we discuss the first chapter pack in the Tales of Champion Cycle

Sweet! I was literally just logging onto the forums to start a thread to ask when 2C1C will return.

Man, Greg is certainly MY Queen of Love and Beauty!

Staton said:

Well, you definitely gave me your flower.

I've just really got to say, **** it feels good to be back.

Dobbler said:

I don't regret it at all! Although I really wish you wouldn't smoke afterwards. Sometimes I just want to cuddle!

Microphone quality was a little fuzzier this time, but glad to have you guys back! Should be plenty of material in the next few weeks, what with Grand Melee out, "On Dangerous Grounds" spoiled, Lions of the Rock hitting shelves soon... I look forward to more of your sweet sultry tones. Especially when posted on a Friday that's otherwise been one long wait for it to end.

Would love to see the Ice & Fire decklists you played with, Dobbler - every deck of yours I've seen has always had a surprise (or several) that's spurred new ideas for deck building.

FANTASTIC to have your show back! I haven't listened yet...really looking forward to it though!

I'm also looking forward to listening. Do you guys discuss DoIaF?

They only touch on DoIaF for a bit. I kinda wished we got more of that. They mostly talk about the winning decks. Not really the field as a whole or what Greg's impression of the metagame currently.

Staton said:

We will probably get back on some overall metagame discussion in two weeks. We'd like to see some of the results from the Spanish National event and Stahleck, and then let our conversation stem from there.

Sorry, NYC crew, evidently Dobbler doesn't care about Black Friday.

Kennon said:

Not true at all, just didn't mention in my list. All I was trying to say is there are big tourneys coming up and we want to wait. I didn't intend my list to be all encompassing.

Kennon, you must me the arithmetic man. You add trouble, subtract pleasure, divide attention, and multiply ignorance.

Hey, what can I say? If you've got a talent, you might as well use it.

Kennon said:

~But not back to being a Lannister? At least not before LotR appears?

Also, Dobbler, I'm not sure I can condone such sick burnage on kennon. Staton, sure... but not poor Will.

Dobbler said:

I disagree with Into the Lists out of instinct, but I may agree with you after I try it out. I'm planning to use it in Tully as a way to ramp Blackfish to 3 power the turn after he was played (Just like Red Wedding).

___

After christmas I am going to go on a tech hiatus in an attempt to have any surprises during regionals

Great to have you guys back podcasting. I'm surprised how much I missed it. and... HOT PIE!

Sorry for resurrecting this, but I'm a bit behind on things. Downloaded the three latest episodes today and started listening. It's good to have you guys back!

One tiny thing, though: In the discussion on Meera, somebody claimed that if you have Meera in play and another copy of her in Shadows, and you use the Any Phase effect to bring the dupe out of Shadows, you get to resolve the effect. That's rather incorrect, though. The second copy attaches itself to Meera as a dupe, and the Then-part of her effect never resolves, because Meera didn't come out of Shadows - a dupe did.

~I'm just mentioning this on the off chance that some n00b who doesn't know better actually takes your words on rules issues seriously.

Ratatoskr said:

Are you sure about this? With normal Shadows rules, I'd agree, but Meera doesn't come out during the Shadows window. She comes out using her ability, and I think it would be a bit strange to use part of it then abandon the rest because there's already a copy of her in play. That would be some odd timing. But I haven't seen it discussed anywhere, so I could be wrong.

longclaw said:

I can't verify Ratatoskr's certainty, but I can assure that he's correct about how Meera's ability resolves when she comes out of Shadows as a duplicate (specifically via her ability).

longclaw said:

Timing has nearly nothing to do with it. It mainly has to do with the rules on duplicates and pre-requisite effects having to resolve for a "then" effect to resolve.

While Meera Reed is in Shadows, she's Meera Reed (obviously). However, when she's brought out Shadows she becomes a duplicate.* Why? Because you can't put a unique card in play that you already own and control, except if it's as a duplicate. Continuing, we know that duplicates have no titles, traits, or text -- they are completely blank. As a result, the card brought out of Shadows is not Meera Reed since it's a (blank) duplicate and has no title. So when we go to resolve the "then" effect we see that it fails not because of some esoteric timing technicality that prevents it from resolving, but because a blank duplicate -- not a card titled "Meera Reed" -- came out of Shadows. The "then" effect will only resolve if a card titled "Meera Reed" comes out of Shadows.

*Assuming you control and own another copy of Meera Reed in play.

If this question falls under simple Shadows rules for uniques and Shadows (and it very well may), I'd agree with your assessment, Fatmouse. I'm not convinced that it does, however. It is possible that it creates a unique issue not covered under those rules since those rules are talking about bringing Shadows cards out of Shadows during the "normal" Shadows windows. It's not like we haven't seen Meera to be complicated and non-intuitive before.

First off, can her effect can be triggered while another copy is in play, outside of the normal Shadows windows? I can't think of why it wouldn't. If it can be triggered, I'm inclined to think timing is very important. Specifically, this passage from Ktom regarding how Meera works with Fortified Position and whether she gets around immunity of the Red Viper seems pertinent:

"So, looking at all of the existing rules for "then" effects and applying precedents - and differences - of delayed "lasting passive effects," I'd answer your question as follows:

When Meera is triggered, out of play, the whole of her text is set in motion before she is "in-play" and subject to Fortified Position. So everything will need to be resolved because of the shared trigger part of the initiation.
However, because the condition on the "then" part of the effect is not settled until she is in play, the full initiation of the "then" part of the effect - already started out of play - does not complete (by checking its final play restriction and choosing a target) until Meera is in play.
This "extended initiation" of the "then effect has 2 implications in this setting:
The initiation has started, so Fortified Position cannot stop it.
The initiation completes when the card is in play (including the choice of target) within the resolution of Meera's triggered effect, while Meera is in play, so it is considered a character ability and cannot get around immunity - at least not as far as targeting is concerned."

I understand that you're saying the unique rules under how Shadows works supersedes these questions, but I don't think they reflect the situation that happens when Meera gets triggered mid-phase. (Nate/Damon could rule that it does, of course.) The only way the second Meera is entering play is that the first part of her ability is triggering. I just want clarification that the rest of the ability gets lost in the process.

It's also possible that the way ktom describes it, there is an "interruption" of sorts where Meera comes into play, attaches as a duplicate, and the "then" part of her effect fizzles. I'd really like to see some official clarification on it.

longclaw said:

Ok, this helps. There's a misconception here of the Shadows Rules:

The only part where the Shadow Rules are talking about bringing a card of Shadows during the "normal Shadows windows" is that exact part. Specifically, the first two paragraphs of Bringing a Card out of Shadows under the Shadows Rules. However, simply because a section of the Shadows rules pertains only to the "normal Shadows windows" doesn't mean that all the sections pertain only to the "normal Shadows windows." The Shadows rules tell us how to handle Shadow cards both at the beginning of a phase and generally.

Take for instance the Shadows rule that when non-event cards comes out of Shadows they come out standing. Does this only apply to Shadows cards coming out at the beginning of the phase? When Meera comes out via her ability does she come into play kneeling or perhaps a new unspecified X-degree angle position? No, the Shadows Rules clearly tell us that when a non-event card comes out of Shadows it comes out standing (unless specified otherwise -- i.e. card text). That's a general Shadows rule. The Shadows rules weren't designed to solely address how to treat Shadows cards at the beginning of a phase. They were designed to explain how to treat Shadow cards -- in conjunction with the other existing rules of the game -- in specific situations (i.e. at the beginning of a phase) and in general. So when we look at how to treat Shadows and uniques we're doing so generally, not just at the beginning of a phase when cards are brought out of Shadows.

Second things, there's a misperception that her ability "gets lost" (or that i was arguing it does -- I wasn't and it doesn't):

When we look at Meera and Fortified Position -- yes -- her entire ability is looked even though the text is blanked, but the "issue" isn't that the "then" part isn't read or vanishes. It's that it's read, but can't be resolved since the effect prior to the "then" effect didn't fully resolve. This part has nothing to to do with Shadows rules. This has to do with how to resolve "then" effects, which is clarified in the FAQ (Hint: The effect prior to a "then" effect must fully resolve for the "then" effect to resolve). So why didn't the prior effect fully resolve? Because "Meera Reed" didn't come out of Shadows. Why? Because she came out of a duplicate -- a titleless card (this is the important part, not that the text gets blanked). Why? Because 1) the Shadows Rules tells us that unique cards come out as duplicates if you own and control a copy of that unique card 2) The "general" rules tell us you can't put a unique card into play (which is what you're doing when you're taking a card out of Shadows) as anything other than a duplicate if you own and control control a copy of that unique card. So there's actually TWO rules that tell us why Meera becomes a duplicate in this situation.

But again -- nowhere does the rest of her ability "get lost." The "then" part is there, it's simply not satisfied for resolution.

CS Khal Drogo and LoW Catelyn Stark work in an identical matter (except from hand and not from Shadows). The only difference is that Khal Drogo and Catelyn Stark don't have "then" effects. Instead, they have normal passives that act on the unique card already in play. Because they are passive non-then effects, they still resolve at the end of the phase.