Hi all, first post! seeking some opinions or thoughts on the idea below. All ideas welcome, - or +. Just don't be a total ass.

I'm a Black Templar Tactical Deathwatch Champion currently rank 4, finishing up a campaign and want to create a secondary advancement to become a Emperors Champion, as described on page 97 in the Rites of Battle. Do-able?
Thinking prerequisites of Rank 6 or 7, must be Black Templar, cost's 5k, requires 60 WS. What I am worried about is what armor and weaponry to give my character, should my GM concur with me and allow this to happen, as The Emperors Champions are said to wield the Black Sword and The Armour of Faith, so was wondering what sort of stats should be entailed with such revered wargear. Help greatly appreciated.

My storm/combat shield question is this, as a Tactical Champion does a Storm shield require your whole arm, left or right, to use, or is your hand still free to use say a Skapulan Bolter with Recoil Supression? If the answer is no ill have to downgrade myself to the combat shield. Some of you may think why does the champion have storm shield when combat shields are standard issue for DW champs, and the answer is a 10 on a reward roll.

Thoughts and ideas appreciated and welcome. Be Constructively Critical if need be

For The Emperor and Dorn!

P.S. My GM issues Purity Seals out with +10 Int, WP, and Fel. I have 3 at the cost of 1k XP apiece which places those stats at 70 each, too OP? we've been discussing that they should be toned down to 3 or 5 points apiece, and mayhap a limit of 2 or 3 per marine.

Stannis Ravensight said:

I don't see why not, if the GM is up for it.

Stannis Ravensight said:

The Storm Shield takes the whole arm. The hand is needed to stabilize a shiled of that size.
Stannis Ravensight said:

A +10 is pretty crazy for a bonus, especially for 3 stats. I would stick to a +3 for normal purity seals and +5 for a near relic level bonus.

As for a limit, I would go with no more than one at +5 and two at +3
Stannis Ravensight said:

Your looking at two relics basically. How crazy do you want to go?

Alll I know of these items is the Lexicanum descriptions.

For the sword, I would look at a Master Crafted Power Sword with Razor Sharp, for crazyness a level bump for Unnatural Str, maybe Felling (1).

For the Armor, Artificer base that grants Hatred (all), just in case the Black Templar doesn't have them yet. Maybe add hexagramatic wards and a +1 to cohesion for his squad. If I were a little mean I might let that cohesion become +3 as long as there were no psykers present in the squad but if there were the squad looses a point of cohesion.

Like I said, I'm not really up to speed on what these particular items are supposed to be/do other than the brief lexicanum description.

Agreed on the sword, was going to add Sanctified, and up the damage to 2d10+9 to make it better than the DW Relic Blade of 2d10+7 that I currently wield.
I like that Hatred (all) idea, hadn't contemplated it, and the armor cohesion sounds good, w/o the +3 cuz our KT is usually comprised of me, our GM Chaplain and our 1st company Librarian, both of salamanders. Should it still give the +12 AP to each body part like normal artificer armour or buff it a little more by a point due to its need to be strong enough to face enemy champions in single combat?
Peoples thoughts on how to balance these? thanks for the post, UncertainWho

Seeking some more input for Balance or stats, at least for the armor. Unique armor history? grants another Past Event due to its long use by multiple champions? Extra Solo Ability so you can be a badass?

Pluses versus enemy elite/masters or champions? Should the wearer, Emperor forbid, fall due to the relentless tides, enhance the BS and WS of any and all Astartes within 100M by 30 each? Enhanced Fellowship?

Just some brainstormed ideas for the armor, still would like some more input, from anyone.

IMO, Bonuses I've seen go up to maybe +5/+10 Max. Enhancement of BS & WS by +30 is way overpowered. Do you give +30 WP too? I'd like to be a librarian in your party.

Armour AP wise, +12 is already strong enough for artificer. If you want better, get terminator armour, which grants a 14 all rounder!

A Storm Shield occupies a complete arm. You aren't able to hold a storm bolter/pistol/melee weapon on that arm. Might recommend you to take another armour history from RoB. That's the most.

In all matters, please defer to your DM.

I will speak to my GM when the time comes, but was trying to flush out balanced items before hand, just to hand him the profiles and have him confirm or tweak them to his liking. Tryin to just get a post with these items up for others to use in case they want to do some chapter specific champion class(es) so they could use this as a base or perhaps the Honor Guard page in the First Founding preview. Sounds like they're pretty rounded out though, so I'll do some write ups on them and post em, maybe within the week.

IMO, Bonuses I've seen go up to maybe +5/+10 Max. Enhancement of BS & WS by +30 is way overpowered. Do you give +30 WP too? I'd like to be a librarian in your party.

I only suggested it be +30 because some of the fluff says that Imperial Forces practically frenzy if an Emp. Champion falls in battle, largely to punish the foes responsible but also to reclaim the revered Armour of Faith and Black Sword so that future Champions may smite the Emperors foes. Maybe over the top, but perhaps not out of line when making a Heroic Death? Once again comes down to my GM I know, but just seeking opinions. Thanks Deepstriker.

Stannis Ravensight said:

I was just jesting on the +30WP. I hope you do not fall at all. It is written on Lexicanum that the fall of the Emperor's Champion is a bad omen for the crusade.

Though it may prove that the Templars will fight with fervour and vigour, I think perhaps that would make them immune to fear and give them a +5/+10 bonus. Think of it of it as watching the company standard fall or the death of a hero of the company. It makes them fight harder but does not turn them into super soldiers.

I may draw some flak from drawing my conjecture using a tabletop equivalents but I'll do it anyway. The Space Wolves have a Venerable Dreanought Bjorn the Fell Handed. If he falls in battle, he becomes another objective that the Space Wolves must achieve.

Perhaps it becomes an RP objective/ opportunity to retrieve the armour and weapon of said Emperor's Champion. Good Luck with your project!

Doesn't DW Champion need Rank 5?

Anyway; I'd recommend simply using the Honour Guard template from First Founding. It's also available as a 'teaser' pdf on the main site.

I find it hard to think what can be added to those two classes and the BT base template to make them more awesome in melee. There should be enough things to buy combat-talent-wise, to see you to Rank 8. I don't think there'll be more than perhaps a single Talent for melee that you'd be missing, and you'd be loaded with wargear to the max.

+10 purity seals seems a bit whack to me, but your GM obviously thinks it's fine. Making them cheaper than actual statistic advances also seems a bit crazy! I'd be more inclined to make them around +3. 'Magic Items' should never outshine a Marine's own capabilities, as the game is supposed to be about how awesome the character is, rather than his phat lewts.

I'd keep 'if they fall' stuff as flavour, as per the DW Champion's fluff. Plus: writing blag for when your character dies always struck me as rather negative thinking!!

Siranui: DW Champion requires Rank 4, renown 40, one or more honours, 50 WS and costs 4k exp.

Don't have First Founding yet, and the teaser for Honour Guard doesn't really have any stats. Where did you find a BT base template??? We did decrease our P. Seals to +3, at 750 xp each. GM admitted the bonus was way too much, and didn't realize how OP it was when he first gave em out. Though I was pretty much the only one that bought them.

I have a 6 page word doc that I'm proof reading through right now. It shows the Requirements and Prerequisites, a little blurb on the needed "Vision from the Emperor," and I'm currently working on the stats. Will upload it somewhere when it's finished later tonight or tomorrow. Thanks for your thoughts, diggin it.

Here we are Sororitas and Astartes, the finished Emperors Champion secondary advancement. Subject to editing for balance.

Gimme some feedback! Let me know if there are any similarities between that and the Ultramarines Honour Guard class from The First Founding, don't have mine yet.

Look forward to any criticism you have, negative or positive. Might seem OP, but that is the point of The Emperors Champion!

Herp Derp, forgot to post my link. How do you edit an already posted message please?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/73805324/The-Emperors-Champion-Secondary-Advance-Class

There ya go.

Just to nitpick at rules... how are you using a relic blade and a storm shield at the same time? Relic blades are two-handed weapons.

Meh. GM kinda wings alot of his stuff and we didn't realize at first that the DW relic blade was 2 handed, we turned it into a 1 handed and nerfed the damage but made it slightly better than a master-crafted power sword. Storm shield he allowed as I'm one of three out of 7 total players that always plays. but he quickly discovered the OPness and I downgraded to a master-crafted Combat Shield.

Stannis Ravensight said:

My bad; was working from memory.

Honour Guard has statistics, alright... the full rules for the class are a free .pdf under the 'news'. The special class skill, a new talent, entry requirements and all talent/skill advances are given. Give it a look, as it should completely fill the role, or if not it should act as a guide to balance.

BT = Black Templar. The base class gives you enough 'hatred' and flavour stuff, and I think literally everything else that you'd ever want is in either DW Champion or the honour guard.

Just finished our Dragon Warriors campaign and successfully saved our first planet, previous ones were shamefully lost. 150 xp from rank 8 and I will be implementing this into my character and testing it out in our new campaign, will post how it turns out. cuz you know, my characters not OP enough yet. lolol.

Wait, doesn't being the Emperor's Champion only last for one battle?

Captain Ventris said:

Yup but theoretically the same Brother could be granted visions multiple times.

Personally I think a better idea is a Sword Brethren Distinction. And if you're the only Templar going into a battlefield, chances are you'll also be the EMperor's Champion on the field too.

Kshatriya said:

Ha, a Vision from the Emperor house rule would be fun! All Black Templars roll a d100 before a mission. On a 91-100, you have a vision and get the Champion's gear. Maybe modify the roll dependent on certain campaign events.

Hm, that and a Sword Brethren specialty could make up for those fancy First-Founding Chapters' Specialties

Might end up using something like that!

Captain Ventris said:

Honestly I think the Deathwatch Champion is a pretty good approximation of what I would expect out of a Sword Brethren. Especially since only Sword Brethren can become Emperor's Champions and ECs only fight in melee.

That's true, though you could alter the Champion's rules to be anti-Daemon and Psyker as opposed to Xenos.

Given that the majority of enemies in most Deathwatch games are xenos, I would be leery of reducing the general effectiveness of an Advanced Specialty to just targeting one enemy (see, e.g., Tyrannic War Veteran powers don't only work against Tyranid Hordes or Tyranids; their "parry Hordes" power applies to all Hordes by the RAW, and there's no reason their grenade attack and fall-back powers woulnd't apply to non-nid enemies of any stripe either. In other words they're focused on fighting nids but apply that new training against many different types of foes).

Given the low numbers of daemons and enemy psykers in a general Deathwatch game (and of course your DW game might focus entirely on the Acheros Salient and fighting heretics, witches, and daemons - but that's not the apparent focus of the game as-written as a whole) I think that limitation would render the specialty expensive and too situational for the cost. Also Emperor's Champions and Sword Brethren fight in every battle, not just battles against psykers or daemons. I might increase the buy-in, add some Hatreds to the table (Psykers and Daemons and Heretics most likely) and then expand the power such that you pick before going on a mission what type of enemy (daemons, psykers, or xenos) you get insta-gib and quasi-Toxic effects against.

That's true. I believe that in table top a champion gets to pick an oath before they go into battle? I don't know what those oaths are, but something reflecting those would be good.

The best one a BT player can pick is the one that lets your whole army reroll missed attacks in melee.

Another is basically the Abhor the Witch Talent. One allows you to gain Strength at the cost of Initiative. The last gives the army an Invulnerable save at the cost of never being able to take cover.

I actually managed to find a list of the oaths and their TT effects.

It just occurred to me that it takes more renown and distinction to become an Ultramarine honor guard member than a Deathwatch Champion, so I'm wondering (I'm honestly not TOO read up on Black Templars) whether the Sword Brethren Specialty would be more on level with the Honor Guard as far as requirements (considering a DW champion can, fluff-wise, be nominated on his first mission if the nominee does something awesometacular).