Hello there! i have a question , although a philosophical one.

Priests of the different cults, fullfill the role of an analogous Christian church in our real middle ages, been the second power in the warhammer setting, and also persuading the common people in following the will of their gods, isnt it?

Well , i have a doubt. In real life , this is easy, since most of the priests dont do any miracles, or any visible manifestation of their deity power, but in Warhammer even an initiate can do blessings, clearly showing the power of their god.

So, how does the people, and the society in itself handle this? It is easy to be corrupt, when you know that god is a methaphysical idea and a diffuse experience, but if you SEE somebody showing its power, then, as my point of view, is a sign of that god true existance, and also of his guidance.

So how does the cult of said initiate handle this? I suppose not all the priests do miracles, so that means that initiates that show this power, are taken as "divine vessels" , and easily reach power in the cult? Or are they ingnored?

What happens to the cult then? If lets say, i am a nobleman, that worship Ulric, and i am corrupt, and then i see the power of my god, i suppose i will take that priest as a prophet, and as a messenger of said god.

What stops the cults for having all the power, even more than any emperor, if they are in fact contacting with their god, been their messengers? Especially if Chaos exist?

Sometimes the fluff shows the empire as corrupt, with nobles that cares little for the empire and the gods, even cults doing war against each other. And then , how can miracle workers exist, and still be seen as "just part of the church", and not as "the godsent leaders of the Empire"?

Jesus for example, was supossedly able to do miracles, and he changed the whole history! (just an example).And in warhammer, any common initiate, or even an uncommon priest, do any miracle, and still is "just a priest".

How can i interpret that? I just want help for finding the logic or the lore for understanding it, since it is a hole in the lore i dont know how to fill.

Interesting subject.

For the real world, there was only one Jesus. And his followers were so inspired and devoted that they spread his word as far and wide as they could, and were even willing to die for it. Depending on how you look at it, Jesus was either THE God that created everything, manifested in the flesh, or the son of the God. I could be wrong, but i think out of all the religions in our world, Jesus was the only one who claimed such authority.

I'm no Warhammer expert, but from what I have been exposed to so far, I would say this:

In the Empire, gods and magic are common, there is religious based magic, and non religious based magic. It is used for good and evil every day. I don't think any of the listed gods even claim that they created everything. Compared to the God in our world these are all Demigods, not holy, and not without flaws, and none of them powerful enough to wipe out the others. They only work in certain domains and are very limited compared to a "creator of all things".

So to put it simply, I think the views of the people are so widely spread out between these gods and the magic expressed in the world, that there is much room for doubt.

"Yeah you just cast a spell, but is that really from a god, or something that your ritual thinking brought about, much like a mage?"

or

"Yeah I believe in Sigmar, but I think Khorne will win in the end."

Also, is their strong pressure from these religions to "not sin" ? It seems like sin has been replaced with chaos corruption -- that has nothing to do with cheating on your wife.

And do any of these gods claim that you MUST follow their way, because it is the ONLY true way, or you will parish in hell?

I agree with much of what Romus said..

Just as magic is common place, so are priests with divine powers. I don't think they most be regarded with such "miracle worker" status when every town, possibly village, has a priest or two. Yes, they are special, but their specialness is diluted by their number.

Their divine power being on display does not necessarily mean everyone will be a devout follower. There are also Chaos gods. There are two sides to the coin of divinity in Warhammer. Everyone should believe in divine powers, but they may be corrupted and follow the dark side of the coin.

In modern terms I might compare a Warhammer priest to a local doctor. The doctor is very special, he has "powers" the typical man can not grasp. Only a limited few of society are able to become doctors. They are thus, overall, respected by society and deemed "special". They even have a special title before their name to denote them as different and special.

The Warhammer priest is much the same - special powers, only a few people can aspire to become them, respected by most, and have a special title before their name. But, like a doctor, only the most exalted of their numbers are considered, "miracle workers".

Let's face it..even in the WFRP world, only the wealthy are going to get miracles. The dirt poor don't get healing spells and whatnot. The people know that such stuff exists, but my guess is that the priests are not sitting there charging up healing spells all dang day long so they can heal every farmer that comes in with a hangnail and a snotty nose. The priests "offices" would be as busy as a poor clinic, with lines out the door..every day of the week.

..and that would lead to a lot of cult leaders because, screw the gods, it's the priests that grant miracles, not the gods. There are no "prayer" miracles, except perhaps by some of the chaos entities.

The question is how do the poor pay for miracles and are there repercussions for those who cannot, really need it, and the priest of Sigmar says, "Sorry, my son, you do not have enough gold paid in your tithes this month, BUGGER OFF."

I can see this being a real issue and the basis for an excellent scenario.

As a balancing factor however, with as much murder and culling-by-beastmen that occurs, the herd doesn't have a lot of diseased folk..they are chased to the dark alleyways, where they are taken by beastmen lurking, skaven skavening, and mad doctors.

jh

Mostly what Emirikol said. The preists are able to use miracles because fo their faith in the deity, not the deity itself. The more faith you have, the stronger your power. This is why Warrior Priests always get awesome about 2 seconds before they die - in that moment, they dont BELIEVE they will be joinging Sigmar - they KNOW it, and that is when their power has waxed full.

The gods exist because the people believe, they do. When enough people believe anything, the warp creates it. Sigmar didn't just become a god. He was made into one by the people. People hold all the power, the gods are just focal points with which to use it. Different focal points end up creating different gods who hold different things in higher esteem. Every deity is essentially an anthropomorphized important aspect of a culture or base human/elf/whatever need/emotion that forms from the collective subconcious of the masses.

At least thats the way I see it.

This subject is left vague and open to speculation on purpose by the developers. However, there are a few things that are generally considered to be true:

All Imperial citizens believe in all the gods. There is only degrees of devotion. They even know that the Chaos Gods exist even if they don't know much about them, but are taught that they are evil and that your soul will be damned if you worship them. On the other hand, the Old Gods must be observed, given prayers and sacrifices to so that you may get their blessings and not their wrath. One thing I want to make very clear: the Old Gods are seen as very holy indeed as they protect the world, and the Empire specifically in the case of Sigmar.

Priests are few, and not all can do miracles, at least not more than very minor ones. Priests as Player Characters are different. They are expected to be better than the average priests and can therefore do more than the rest. However, as stated in the source books in WFRP3 about religion, the gods will stop your ability to do miracles if you as a priest don't follow your patron god's tenets or turn to the Chaos Gods.

Miracles and magic have the same source: the Realm of Chaos. However, this is not widely known. This is known almost exclusively by more knowledgeable wizards, and they would rather not risk there lives going public with this. To non-wizards there is a clear distinction between miracles by priests and magic by wizards. One is holy and the other is seen as little better than sorcery by Chaos Worshippers, even if magic by wizards from the Colleges of Magic is permitted by law.

All the gods really do exist. It is indeed as Hrafn said that the gods are made from the beliefs of people, but this does not diminish their power. Once enough people believe something, their thoughts pool together in the Realm of Chaos and become sentient beings. When they are strong enough they try and influence mortals and remind them that they exist. What makes the Chaos Gods so strong is that they are born from raw feelings and not beliefs, as feelings are the core of our being, while beliefs takes conscious thought. This knowledge, however, is not known at all to the denizens of the Warhammer world.

The Chaos Gods will grant blessings just like the Old Gods, but their blessings takes the form of mutations, unholy vigour or the ability to do sorcery. However, while the Chaos Gods indeed give you power, you become their slave and lose yourself to insanity and damnation.

Well said, Kopesh.