In the last 24-48 hours, two different trait manipulation combos appeared on tzumainn's site. They are essentially the same combo - target removal of a card with Carrion Bird's ability through trait manipulation (Old Nan, Rhegar's Harp and Lion's Gate, primarily). Obviously, this requires winning a military challenge, so it would be easy to say "they'll just kill the guy for claim instead of letting you 'bird' them." But even if that's the case, YOU chose the claim target instead of your opponent. That's huge.

To me, I think there is a hidden strength to these combos. Many combos suffer on some level from the limited use of many of the cards in it. The cards work great together, but if you don't get them all at the same time, they don't add much to your game on their own. But Carrion Bird is such a great card (1-cost neutral military weenie with stealth) on its own that your deck doesn't suffer much if you never get the trait manipulation card going. You probably have Carrion Bird in your deck already! And there is almost no drawback to it in the LCG environment (no Threat from the North or First Snows).

So I'm curious. Do people see Carrion Bird as an insanely strong, or at least utilitarian, weenie? Is it an auto-include in LCG deck? Do you worry about them when your opponent plays them? And how do you handle them if you do?

I don't know it it is a real problem right now, but it's true that it can become a big trouble in a LCG only environment, especially if there are not other valuable removals/controllish stuff.

I've to say if they consider it a BIG trouble (as it can be) the only thing to do in this sense without nerfing it is to say that "crow" is an uneligible target for the purposes of "changing a trait". I don't see other ways to solve the thing without making the Birds useless.

IMHO

I'm not thinking of the card as a problem and certainly not saying it needs to be hit with a nerf-stick.

I was just noticing that the strength of the trait manipulation combos, for me at any rate, rests on the fact that Carrion Bird is so useful outside of any combo. My questions are more to see what people think of the power level of this card in general. There aren't too many 1-STR characters that may need to be "dealt with" as soon as they hit the table; you either ride them out or you trust that they'll go away as fodder sooner rather than later. I'm just curious if people think Carrion Bird is one of those rare "must deal with it" weenies, particularly in the absence of "mass weenie control" plots like First Snows.

I've never like trait manipulation as a mechinic for removal.....it just seems cheap in some way.

especially in this case were it seems explotative and not designed. (not saying its broken, just explotative)

I think carrion birds are a solid card (i run 3 in my lcg league deck, more to get my black raven back then anything else) and i start off with at least 1 when making a new deck....but i often find myself using them for claim soak in actual game play.

I don't think it is a must deal with. Probably because I have three in most if not all of my decks. I think as more cards are released it may not be such an auto-include, but even without the trait-manipulation combos it will be in about 75% of decks at least for a year. It is a great card.

Another interesting aspect in that one of the easiest ways to "deal with" it is your own copy on the board.

Is it a utility weenie? Is their ability more about protecting your Black/White Raven, getting rid of your opponent's, or something else?

Any card that achieves multiple effects is strong. Usually these are 'come into play' characters like the bandit lord, personal guard and ygritte who net you not only themselves as a character, but an additional effect for an overall less expensive gold cost and at the loss of only one card. Other examples include 'writ small', 'tywin's protege', and 'to be a dragon'.

The carrion bird, quite simply, is the most powerful utility weenie EVER.¹

Based on his stats alone, he fits nicely into most lannister, targ and greyjoy decks. He's probably the only utility character ever created who is good even without the ability.

But the ability is what makes this card shine. If this card was printed in winter block (bards, song full of lies, gold for bribes) he'd be nerfed faster than Jaqen. For a whopping 1 gold, you get a character with a fairly reliable way to do direct damage EVERY turn. He's not quite as strong as ilyn payne, machine gun khal drogo, or westeros cersei, but he costs much less and is non-unique.

The carrion bird isn't broken, per se, but has the potential to be in combination with trait mannipulation. Old Nan is vulnerable and the harp has to be recursed from the discard pile; but the zero cost, non-unique lion's gate comes pretty darn close. It's particularly strong against baratheon, who right now is lannister's only predator.

Until there's a first snow reprint, the only option available to everyone is to use playsets of their own birds to knock off their opponent's. Otherwise, Stark has a strong chance against them with a plethora of low-cost characters with the military icon and targ has burn effects (fried chicken anyone?). In last week's league match, the bird presented a particular problem when it came to deciding who to spend my kneel effects on... kneel out his 3-cost banner for the storm, or his carrion bird to keep my white raven safe. I chose the latter but lost the game.

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¹ this includes not only agot but any other ccg.

ktom said:

In my Greyjoy Kings of Winter deck, seeing a Carrion Bird on the table gets me nervous -- the Ice Fishermen, Wintertime Marauders and Winter Armada rely on Winter so heavily that I'm willing to toss a Fishing Net on a Carrion Bird, they're among the first targets for the Marauder's pop-response, and I've used the Distraction event on a Carrion Bird more than once.

I love having them and I respect facing them. For the current LCG environment, I think they're a must-have for my decks (I tend to favor Stark, Greyjoy and Baratheon), and I expect to see them in my opponent's decks, so I try to plan for them.

Without a doubt Carrion bird is a strong card.

I would personally find it very helpful for teh discussion if people could describe which cards they consider to be a weenie card- well, i know the description is usually a low cost charachter with max. stats and a good ability.

But this desciption may apply for a lot of cards: Walder Frey, Hodor, Shaggydog, Brown Ben Plumm, House umber recruiter (and the recruiters of the other houses), Bran Stark, Meera Reed, Veteran Looters, Bastard of bolton, Toll collector, expandable ally .... i could easily drop 3 or 4 more lines with examples.

So where does the weenie status end in the AGOT card game for all of you? 0 cost, 0-1 cost, 0-2 cost ? Need of a special strength/cost ratio? Special ability/keyword required?

Maybe the carrion birds are just that often played because it´s non- unique (can be played x3) and has the stealth keyword, which is underrepresented right now in the LCG format outside of house Targaryen. Their ability is the icing on the cake in my opinion.

Old Ben said:

Well, I think of weenies as low cost, usually low STR, characters that are not particularly integral to the strategy of a deck as individuals. They're there as much as quick-start and fodder as anything else. The characters that are more or less expendable, at least in part because that's what you put them in the deck to be. The "max stats" and "good ability" is more about power creep, I think. Weenies can be "vanilla," but in this day in age, they hardly ever are because you can get "rocky road" for the same price.

~ Are we having a card conversation on the boards?

I have to say that I never even considered this type of combo, and I am running the Lion's Gate in my Martell deck with 3 Carrion Birds. I now have a new strategy, and one that will most likely surprise my opponents as only Khal Viper checks these forums, and not even that often.

Isn't this one of those things that Nate was trying to achieve when designing the Five Kings block (of which Ravens is technically the third part of), the combo cards? Perhaps this was an unintentional combo creation, but it is an effective combo, and a relatively cheap one at that. CCGs rely heavily on combos, and this one actually makes me happy as it starts to change the dynamic of the game, and makes Stealth that much more important in the game environment, as well as making Renown (and to a lesser extent Infamy) risky. I am looking forward to where this discovery moves the current state of the game.

ktom said:

JerusalemJones said:

Both in gold cost and in the more subtle deck-slot cost of combos I was talking about earlier. The cards are already in your deck without looking for the combo.

Maester_LUke said:

holy crap! LUke!! now if we could only change his trait to "One who knows how to use the boards"!

~Here's the ultimate question, would LUke have used this card in his WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP deck?!?!?

Well, I think of weenies as low cost, usually low STR, characters that are not particularly integral to the strategy of a deck as individuals. They're there as much as quick-start and fodder as anything else. The characters that are more or less expendable, at least in part because that's what you put them in the deck to be. The "max stats" and "good ability" is more about power creep, I think. Weenies can be "vanilla," but in this day in age, they hardly ever are because you can get "rocky road" for the same price.

Than carrion bird is more than just a weenie charachter, is either a major part of your own startegy if you are running a seasons deck or a major part of the counter strategy if you aren´t running a seasons deck, but face one. Well at the moment it´s "the only" counter strategy till the new plot has reached all players (not counting trait manipulation combos to get rid off white/black raven).

Meh, if i look at my last reply i want to believe that there´s some bug in the quote functionalty. ;-)

Yes, the quote function is much harder to use on this board than on the old ones. I think that's because it's driven by VB scripts rather than HTML tags.

Maybe the season mechanic has caught on more around you, but I don't see Carrion Bird as being "integral" to them, or to countering them. I mean, if you have enough recursion and/or search, you don't necessarily need the Bird to make sure the season stays where you want it; the 3x copies of your particular Raven are enough. And if you are NOT playing a season deck, there are enough cards that don't care what the season is that (resource curve aside against a Winter deck) whether it is Summer, Winter or no season, it's doesn't make much of a difference to you. Now, that said, if you are playing against a season deck, it may behoove you to keep the season away from your opponent's preference in order to give them a bigger obstacle to overcome. And if you are playing a season deck, you'll want to protect against it being your disadvantageous season as much as possible. Both of those are reasons that Carrion Bird is a utilit y or toolbox card in the present environment, but I don't see them as being "integral" in that without them, your deck cannot function properly.

To use Luke's example, if I were playing a Greyjoy discard strategy, I would actually NOT think of Veteran Looters as a "weenie" because they would be very important to how my deck worked. I would not see them as fodder. But if I were playing an unopposed strategy or a Warship strategy, I'd probably see them as weenies because as great as the 2-icons, stealth and "stand and discard" ability is, my present and future board position takes more of a hit if something else leaves play before them. It's a good example of how a card can be a weenie in one deck, but not the other. At least for me.

I know the definition of "weenie" I'm using here is a bit subjective. Boiled down, I guess I think of weenies as being there primarily to put in front of other characters since I know things are going to die.

ktom said:

ummmmmmh.....

~Luke´s overall presence is frightening. ;-)

Carrion birds are probably not integral to keep a black or white raven in play, but i wouldn´t want to miss them in my seasons deck, because:

1. Once i dropped a raven, i could still use a time for ravens to search for a charachter.

2. The easiest solution to prevent opponents carrion bird is a carrion bird- it was already mentioned they see a lot play.

3. Most important i could neglect my own seasonal card if necessary, which is very important to me especially when playing winter decks. If i face a true resource denial deck and lost a lot of resources to my opponents strategy it might be a good idea to shuffle the winter raven back to the deck and avoid suffering from my own effect.The same maybe true for a summer deck, if your opponent get´s choked on resources over the course of a game it can be a good decision to stop the +1 gold effect. The last situation is two season decks with the same seasons are playing against each other, your opponent manages to bring more cards on the board which benefit from the season. I´ve been through every of this play situations since the release of the cp and i decided to neglect my own raven regulary- maybe every third game or so.

So to summarize the whole statement, carrion birds are for me not integral to keep a white or black raven in play, but they are somehow integral to utilize a season deck to a maximum gain and allow flexibility.

Old Ben said:

Exactly. They do not contribute to the establishment or utilization of the main idea of the deck (make it the season you want and take advantage of it with appropriate effects), but they do help maintain the appropriate environment once achieved and add flexibility in denying an opponent a similar - though opposite - advantageous environment. Granted, there are really no better choices for accomplishing what you can accomplish with them, but even a season deck can perform without them. You don't need them, but why would you ignore them and what they can do if you didn't have to? To me, that makes them high-profile, utility weenies, but weenies nonetheless.

That's not to say I think weenies are useless or perfectly interchangeable with characters that have similar stats. Their identities matter within the deck. And, in fact, most of the strengths of the Bird you are describing are the reasons I started talking about the power and flexibility of it as a nearly universal weenie. But here's the defining question for me; assuming I'm not hopelessly behind at the time, does losing one make me feel like I've been pushed back or that I need to do some serious rebuilding? I've never felt that way. That's why I see them as weenies and why I stop short at "integral."

Leaving aside the question of "integral," are you saying you do not see Carrion Birds as weenies, OB? What's your definition of a weenie?

Carrion Bird is essential to any deck in the LCG format, regardless of playing a season or not. I have not seen any viable way to make a deck and not include 3 copys of this card because of their cheap cost and amazing utility tool to control the game. As a player I still dislike the idea of seasonal decks as this now becomes an intergral part of your deck and without having the seasons in your favor leaves you at a great disadvantage. Regardless, if I were "not" to pick a seasonal themed deck I am still forced to add this three cards to prevent my opponent from keeping the season he or she favors. The card to me has become the next Jaqen H'gar x3 and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets nerfed.

Red Terror said:

I run a martell deck in the league. It is a kings of summer deck, but doesn't have to be (the only card that benifit's is The knight that you can put gold on him for extra STR). The reason i run the agenda is becuase i knew there were going to be at least two other summer decks (one bara, one Targ) that definatly were going to be making it summer. In the first game i played against the bara summer deck The agenda helped me keep pace with him (the +1 Draw was even and the extra 2 renown he claimed didn't make a difference in the game) also, i was able to draw into a few good cards with that extra draw. Never really used summer mechinics and I did not make it summer so i could focus on other uses of resources (like killing my carrion birds instead of Dayne, making them weenies). In the first game against Targ neither one of us made it summer and this prevented the targ player form doing a whole lot more then it prevented me from doing and Again i could use the birds as weenies. So the seasons became a nonfactor in both of those games. Now if i had a winter deck it might have been a different story, but i negated the birds by sticking the agenda in the deck that doesn't need it to be summer (it is also a good red herring as my opponet things he is dyning me stuff by making it not summer...)

As for a nerf of the birds....I don't think so. The combo could be pretty heavy and I've addressed my feelings before, but it is a combo that doesn't win you the game (unlike Jaqen) and is no more disruptive then guilty or locked would be.

Well done Rozy... this is amasing combo... so far those cards were staple x3 in funny new LCG format now they are super staple. I played before Lanni trait hate classic deck until they killed classic at all it was very powerfull and nerved deck, now we have possibilities maybe to run this deck in LCG, still not so many trait manipulation and killing or discard mechanism and poor plot build but ,maybe soon...

It is really strong in LCG only, and goes to show why the meta should never be without some sort of weenie removal. It is really harder to balance weenies since they take so little resources to put out. Wildfire doesn't do it...

The main issue is that he is so cheap, non-unique, searchable (one of the few - only? - one-sided searches out there), he is good even without any combo (1 strength stealth is good, without trait manip he is still good vs Summer/Winter decks), and heck - now there is even a combo with Sam and drawing

i don't think it needs to be nerfed, but I do believe at some point there needs to be a First Snow/Threat North type plot back. I am partial to First Snow since I though it was easier to balance 3/2's than 2/1's (plus the picture is still classic0, but whatever.

I think i've mentioned my thoughts on Plot control for small charatcers before.

They are absolutely needed and I just hate playing in an environment without them. Sign me up for a First Snow reprint ASAP.

On the Lion's Gate copmbo - its not quite as bad as I thought. There are multiple conditions to fill to hit the target, and although pwoerful, i don't think its game breaking. I don't think there will be a nerf.

The Birds themselves are staples. I think that's fine - certain cards should be block defining.

rings said:

Definitely agree that First Snow or Threat from the North or an alternate solution needs to be (re)printed. Granted I haven't played in months - but they just need to keep those around in general.

As I said, I haven't played in months, but have to say I'm once again extremely disappointed to see that the first staple card to be identified in this environment is a card as non-descript as Carrion Bird - doesn't really bring to mind any memorable scene(s) from the book. Just hate it when they give those really good utility weenies generic titles that aren't germaine to the novels.