Imperial Naval forces...er...not in space, but on the...er...water

By Lightbringer, in Dark Heresy

Posted at

Here's an idle thought... The new GW dreadfleet game got me pondering about aquatic warfare in the 41st Millenium.

We all know that the Imperial Navy is responsible for deep space/orbital/air-to-air combat within the Imperium. But would they also be responsible for actual aquatic conflict, aboard honest to goodness ships that float on the water?

My thinking is that they wouldn't: there seems to be a clear dividing line between ground-slogging Imperial Guardsmen and the airborne forces of the Imperial Navy. it seems to me far more likely that there are Imperial Guard divisions which operate boats, ships etc for surface combat aboard human-occupied planets.

One imagines that these come from water worlds with a martial tradition - small navies being recruited in much the same way that regiments are recruited elsewhere in the Guard. They might have similar specialities as the regimental Guardsmen have established: ice world fleets, storm world fleets, polluted hiveworld fleets and so on.

I also got thinking about the sort of vessels they'd use. The largest land-based equipment used by the Imperial Military (that we know about) are the Titans and the Capitol Imperialis of the Imperial Guard. There seems to be a size limit to the war materiel that can be transported to a planet's surface in one go by drop ships. So I'm going to extrapolate from there that Imperial Guard surface fleet vessels are probably not going to actually be that huge - I'm thinking the size of modern frigates at best. I'm not saying Imperial Guard surface fleets don't operate larger ships, I'm just suggesting that there is a practical size limit to ones that can be dropped from orbit. Any bigger, and they'd have to be assembled once the Imperial Guard have established a beach head on the world.

I also imagine that these ships use STC designs, and incorporate a lot of STC weaponary...so earthshaker cannon, manticore batteries etc.

Once the guard are established on a planet, I'm sure that the Adeptus Mechanicus can produce some very large ships - aircraft carriers, battleships etc, all with larger and more powerful weaponry - perhaps even equipped with voidshields and the like.

And then you can also consider the xenos forces that would be arrayed against them - ork submersibles (we've seen these a lot in Armageddon) Eldar hovercraft/skimmers, Necron kraken-like mechanical seabests etc etc....

I know that's all a bit stream of consciousness, but could make for a fun boardgame! Any thoughts?happy.gif

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Lightbringer said:

Here's an idle thought... The new GW dreadfleet game got me pondering about aquatic warfare in the 41st Millenium.

We all know that the Imperial Navy is responsible for deep space/orbital/air-to-air combat within the Imperium. But would they also be responsible for actual aquatic conflict, aboard honest to goodness ships that float on the water?

My thinking is that they wouldn't: there seems to be a clear dividing line between ground-slogging Imperial Guardsmen and the airborne forces of the Imperial Navy. it seems to me far more likely that there are Imperial Guard divisions which operate boats, ships etc for surface combat aboard human-occupied planets.

One imagines that these come from water worlds with a martial tradition - small navies being recruited in much the same way that regiments are recruited elsewhere in the Guard. They might have similar specialities as the regimental Guardsmen have established: ice world fleets, storm world fleets, polluted hiveworld fleets and so on.

I also got thinking about the sort of vessels they'd use. The largest land-based equipment used by the Imperial Military (that we know about) are the Titans and the Capitol Imperialis of the Imperial Guard. There seems to be a size limit to the war materiel that can be transported to a planet's surface in one go by drop ships. So I'm going to extrapolate from there that Imperial Guard surface fleet vessels are probably not going to actually be that huge - I'm thinking the size of modern frigates at best. I'm not saying Imperial Guard surface fleets don't operate larger ships, I'm just suggesting that there is a practical size limit to ones that can be dropped from orbit. Any bigger, and they'd have to be assembled once the Imperial Guard have established a beach head on the world.

I also imagine that these ships use STC designs, and incorporate a lot of STC weaponary...so earthshaker cannon, manticore batteries etc.

Once the guard are established on a planet, I'm sure that the Adeptus Mechanicus can produce some very large ships - aircraft carriers, battleships etc, all with larger and more powerful weaponry - perhaps even equipped with voidshields and the like.

And then you can also consider the xenos forces that would be arrayed against them - ork submersibles (we've seen these a lot in Armageddon) Eldar hovercraft/skimmers, Necron kraken-like mechanical seabests etc etc....

I know that's all a bit stream of consciousness, but could make for a fun boardgame! Any thoughts?happy.gif

There was, some time ago, a project that covered wet navy actions in Epic - the conveniently titled WetEpic. I don't know where it's gone now, though, otherwise I'd provide a link.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

There was, some time ago, a project that covered wet navy actions in Epic - the conveniently titled WetEpic. I don't know where it's gone now, though, otherwise I'd provide a link.

I think I might have found it here

It's interesting stuff... Not quite as bonkers as I pictured it, but still good.

Dreadfleet is such a nice little GW one-shot of a game, it's interesting to imagine how a 40k version would work. Imagine a 40k hive world sea board, with skirmishes taking place on a filthy, polluted grey-green sea covered with oil slicks, floating servitor corpses... Heavily armed 40k lighthouses, wharfs, Hong-Kong style boat slums... whirlpools, mutated sea beasts....

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When I first got into 40K, the name "Land Raider" got me wondering what a "Sea Raider" looked like... Later, GW came out with the explanation that Land Raiders (and Land Speeders) were named after a guy called Land...bostezo.gif

But, yeah, planetary waterways would be the province of the local Planetary Defense Force, not the Imperial Navy or Imperial Guard. It's reasonable to assume that there are probably specialized units of Imperial Guard kitted out for aquatic combat, complete with floating transports and possibly submersibles, but I've never seen any official info on that...

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Oops- double post...

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Sandy Mitchell touches on this in the Ciaphas Cain voicebook Dead on the Water, where the Guard (and PDF) operate watercraft. Local smallboats mostly, but with some larger gunboat sized vessels, operated at the squad and platoon level respectively. It implies there are larger vessels used but since the world in question is lots of small landmasses scattered throughout small seas they're not appropriate to his mission. The gunboats are STC (or at least standard guard vessels).

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You look at what Techno-Archeologist Lucius Sea discovered.

I basically don't think you can ignore this at all. There are several planets in Calixis which are entirely (or nearly entirely covered in water), most have significant water coverage including the Scintilla (although IRC Hive Sibellus no longer has the sea lapping against it) .

Now, as you say, the defence of these world would be done by specialist PDF regiments. Depending on their strategic importance they might need significant vehicles. Possible even some ancient city sized Leviathons with their own defence lasers and plasma missile batteries (which would be a good setting for game).

But based on this, the Imperial Guard pretty much have to be equipped to attack water worlds. The general creedo of the IG is that it's better to have many different regiments and select the best ones for the particular environment if available but I can't see them being reliant on having Spectoris 102nd in campaign fleet (for example) so they pretty much must be equipped.

In fact the venerable Chimera is amphibious so any mechanised force only needs something that will land in water and (or be carrying) vessals to get them near the coast, but that's a long way from epic sea battles. Perhaps there are entire Starships full of seagoing vessals.

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My two cents: All forms of "traditional navy" are actuall PDF.

What makes the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy imperial? The fact that they are raised and deployed at the whim of the imperium and all over the imperium. While re-deployment of ground forces like tanks and infantry makes sense... I do not think that the logistics involing getting...say a battleship off a given world and onto another .... hm... I did not try to have logic argument about anything regarding logistics & the 40K setting, did I?

...oh, never mind....preocupado.gif

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from france

just my thought but planet with lots of archipel does exist in the imperium and sea warfares might be a option. if a ship is capable of transporting a comand vehicule the size of a leviathan it can transport ship like we have.

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I would agree that this is the district of the PDF, any time i see the guard at war on a planet it is either from valkeryies in the sky (with other transports of course) to disrupt naval shipping (if any) or on a massive ground based footslog against the foe...

I would even go so far as to say that maybe the guard doesn't even have a "battle ship" per say, but instead some sort of arieal fleight, that simply blows up the enemy ships... as for ork submersibles, well that was a totally crazy ork that ate a bad squig (not that i am sayin it's a bad idea)... but i don't really see the imperium focusing on water based combat, i think water is just a way to carry troops into a combat zone faster if you don't already have planes (or to sneak in under AA fire..)

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I think Darkmittens has hit the nail on the head- the Imperium probably could transport a battleship from one planet to the next, but what would be the point? As I understand it the point of a navy is to transport ground troops, destroy enemy shipping, and bring aircraft and missiles within striking distance of enemy facilities. A fleet in orbit could do all of these things much more effectively, given how much faster a fleet in orbit can travel compared to a fleet on water. The only thing a fleet on water could potentially do better is mount boarding actions where it was undesireable to destroy an enemy vessel. Even then, I imagine you could launch a boarding action from orbit using guncutters and troops rappelling onto the deck of the ship.

My guess would be that water-based forces would be PDF coastguard used to board and search vessels suspected of smuggling. This would be useful in a policing situation where you wouldn't want to send the evidence to the bottom of the sea by using an orbital or missile strike.

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I think brown-water guard units would be fairly common and necessary on many worlds. River patrol boats and landing craft would be no more difficult than a rhino to transport.

Green-water guard units would be more difficult, but not impossible to transport and a step or two more rare.

Blue-water guard units would be in the near unique catagory and almost unheard of.

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ItsUncertainWho said:

I think brown-water guard units would be fairly common and necessary on many worlds. River patrol boats and landing craft would be no more difficult than a rhino to transport.

Green-water guard units would be more difficult, but not impossible to transport and a step or two more rare.

Remember that the Chimera is amphibious, which lessens (though does not remove) some of these requirements.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

ItsUncertainWho said:

I think brown-water guard units would be fairly common and necessary on many worlds. River patrol boats and landing craft would be no more difficult than a rhino to transport.

Green-water guard units would be more difficult, but not impossible to transport and a step or two more rare.

Remember that the Chimera is amphibious, which lessens (though does not remove) some of these requirements.

The Gorgon's amphibious, too.

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Lightbringer said:

N0-1_H3r3 said:

ItsUncertainWho said:

I think brown-water guard units would be fairly common and necessary on many worlds. River patrol boats and landing craft would be no more difficult than a rhino to transport.

Green-water guard units would be more difficult, but not impossible to transport and a step or two more rare.

Remember that the Chimera is amphibious, which lessens (though does not remove) some of these requirements.

The Gorgon's amphibious, too.

We'll you've hit on a bit of fuzzy area their, seeing as they haven't mentioned (to my knowledge) a craft capable of carrying those Tanks and Super heavy tanks to the surface. On water worlds they might just fly down and drop from the bottom of a unnamed heavy lifter craft, they might also have heavy lifter that are capable of landing in the water. If they rely exclusively on dropping amphibious craft directly in the water then that's a pretty bad limit on their strategy. A single very heavily defended against air attacks, island becomes practically impregnible if they can't get artillery from the water and have to land relatively close.

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Sands said:

I think Darkmittens has hit the nail on the head- the Imperium probably could transport a battleship from one planet to the next, but what would be the point? As I understand it the point of a navy is to transport ground troops, destroy enemy shipping, and bring aircraft and missiles within striking distance of enemy facilities. A fleet in orbit could do all of these things much more effectively, given how much faster a fleet in orbit can travel compared to a fleet on water. The only thing a fleet on water could potentially do better is mount boarding actions where it was undesireable to destroy an enemy vessel. Even then, I imagine you could launch a boarding action from orbit using guncutters and troops rappelling onto the deck of the ship.

My guess would be that water-based forces would be PDF coastguard used to board and search vessels suspected of smuggling. This would be useful in a policing situation where you wouldn't want to send the evidence to the bottom of the sea by using an orbital or missile strike.

Sands said:

I think Darkmittens has hit the nail on the head- the Imperium probably could transport a battleship from one planet to the next, but what would be the point? As I understand it the point of a navy is to transport ground troops, destroy enemy shipping, and bring aircraft and missiles within striking distance of enemy facilities. A fleet in orbit could do all of these things much more effectively, given how much faster a fleet in orbit can travel compared to a fleet on water. The only thing a fleet on water could potentially do better is mount boarding actions where it was undesireable to destroy an enemy vessel. Even then, I imagine you could launch a boarding action from orbit using guncutters and troops rappelling onto the deck of the ship.

My guess would be that water-based forces would be PDF coastguard used to board and search vessels suspected of smuggling. This would be useful in a policing situation where you wouldn't want to send the evidence to the bottom of the sea by using an orbital or missile strike.

I think this is a logical approach with a lot of merit. But I do think there must be SOME heavy Imperial Guard aquatic forces.

First off, while it certainly make sense for most Imperial worlds' PDFs to operate their own heavy surface fleets, there are bound to be occasions when the Imperium needs to use a blue water surface fleet against a world that isn't actually held by the Imperium. Crusades against xeno or heretic held water worlds will inevitably require the use of large surface warships.

While I accept that a fleet of orbital starships can carry out a lot of the work a surface fleet could, it's only useful to a certain point. An orbital fleet is a sledgehammer, and sometimes a less brutal weapon is required, especially where planetary assets (cities, oil rigs etc) need to be recovered intact. Additionally, the siege of Vraks campaign is an illustration of how an orbital fleet can on occasion be engaged by other spacebourne forces, cutting them off from the forces on the planet. It makes sense for water-world campaigns to involve large ships that can sustain a battle for the months or years necessary to subdue local forces.

However, I do agree that it doesn't make much sense for the Imperial Guard to be routinely lugging battleships or aircraft carriers from world to world. There's no precedent that I'm aware of for anything larget than an Imperator Titan being brought to a planet's surface.

My guess is that the Imperial Guard probably operates a variety of small craft (river patrol boats like in Apocalypse Now - imagine one of them being dropped by a Valkyrie!) and slightly larger ocean going craft, probably about the size of a modern destroyer at most. These would actually be very light, simple craft, cheap vessels that are easily replaceable, that are dropped from orbit in modified standard drop ships.

Where larger craft are required, the Adeptus Mechanicus would rapidly construct them on-planet from resources shipped in especially. One imagines the Imperial Guard would prioritise the capture of local dockyards so that the Admech can get busy churning these things out.

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Face Eater said:

We'll you've hit on a bit of fuzzy area their, seeing as they haven't mentioned (to my knowledge) a craft capable of carrying those Tanks and Super heavy tanks to the surface. On water worlds they might just fly down and drop from the bottom of a unnamed heavy lifter craft, they might also have heavy lifter that are capable of landing in the water. If they rely exclusively on dropping amphibious craft directly in the water then that's a pretty bad limit on their strategy. A single very heavily defended against air attacks, island becomes practically impregnible if they can't get artillery from the water and have to land relatively close.

Yeah, you're right, there's not a huge amount of info about how the Imperium transports stuff from orbit to a planet's surface. There was an old Epic scale drop ship, another one called the "Devourer" which featured in Inferno magazine, and one shown in the background of the new Imperial Guard Codex. These things look big - if you're English, think the same sort of size as a cross-channel ferry. Such vessels would certainly be capable of carrying a number of Gorgons to a world's surface. One imagines that if some of them can land on...er...land, then landing on water isn;t totally implausible.

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Lightbringer said:

Remember that the Chimera is amphibious, which lessens (though does not remove) some of these requirements.

The Gorgon's amphibious, too.

Amphibious armor units have their place but they are neither as fast, flexible, or maneuverable as a river patrol boat or ridgid hull inflatable craft.

These types of units would be indespensable in any environment with even a few rivers, swamps, or coastal areas.

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from france

this a list of naval water ship found on wiki used from wwI to now. it can be used as a base line for water ship in 40. be it for pdf forces or wtaer guard regiment. don't forget that some water world are too valuable to be burry by a space craft lance and that drop in troop, munition facilities heavy vehicule, super heavy vehicules leike the leviathan or the capitol imperialistes can be tricky on water world. plus if special spacraft carrier do existe for trnasportong those thing i don't see why some will not be tailored for transporting water base unit.

Plus once in the "ground you need to be both mobile and able to resist counter attact. how many times you can't waste walkyre air borne assault from orbit? guncutter are not ideal for assault.

if you small island or continent must be taken and not destroy your opponent will probably have water base unit who in the end will be more mobile. you can say they can be deal with space shft. yes and no.

they can have powerful weapons like those of the landship of zayth or have powerful decoy tool.

it is not because so far it has not been use so far in the fluff that it doesn't exist.

so the list and my opinion on it s use by pdf gaurd or both. it just a guideline.

Aircraft carriers

• Aircraft carrier pdf yes guard maybe
• Supercarrier pdf yes guard maybe
• Escort carrier pdf yes guard maybe
• Helicopter carrier no for both unless you use it for walkyrie
• Balloon carrier i don't think so
• Seaplane carrier pdf yes guard maybe
• Amphibious assault ship pdf yes guard yes
• Aircraft cruiser pdf yes guard maybe
• Fighter catapult ship pdf yes guard no
• CAM ship no idea
• Merchant aircraft carrier pdf yes guard i doubt


Battleships •

Battleship
• Fast battleship pdf yes guard yes
• Coastal battleship pdf yes guard maybe
• Dreadnought battleship pdf yes guard yes
• Pre-dreadnought battleship pdf yes guard no
• Battlecruiser pdf yes guardy es


Cruisers

• Cruiser pdf yes guard yes
• Armoured cruiser pdf yes guard yes
• Protected cruiser pdf yes guard yes
• Unprotected cruiser pdf yes guard no
• Heavy cruiser pdf yes guard yes
• Light cruiser pdf yes guard yes
• Guided missile cruiser pdf yes guard yes
• Anti-aircraft cruiser pdf yes guard yes
• Auxiliary cruiser pdf yes guard yes


Escort • Destroyer
• Guided missile destroyer pdf yes guard yes
• Destroyer Escort pdf yes guard yes
• Frigate pdf yes guard yes
• Guided missile frigate pdf yes guard yes
• Aviso no idea
• Kaibokan no idea
• Sloop no for both i think
• Convoy rescue ship pdf yes guard yes
• Armed merchant cruiser pdf yes guard maybe


Transport • Troopship
• Landing Ship Dock pdf yes guard yes
• Landing Ship Tank pdf yes guard yes
• Landing Ship Vehicle pdf yes guard yes
• Landing Ship Infantry pdf yes guard yes
• Landing Ship Logistics pdf yes guard yes
• Landing Ship Heavy pdf yes guard yes
• Landing Ship Medium pdf yes guard yes
• Landing Ship Support, Large pdf yes guard yes
• Amphibious transport dock pdf yes guard yes
• Attack transport pdf yes guard yes
• Liberty ship no for both
• Victory ship no for both


Patrol craft • Patrol boat
• Corvette
• Submarine chaser pdf yes guard yes
• Cutter pdf yes guard maybe
• Armed boarding steamer pdf only
• Ocean boarding vessel pdf yes guard yes
• Armed yacht no for both
• Naval trawler no idea
• Naval drifter no idea
• Gunboat pdf yes guard maybe
• Torpedo boat pdf yes guard yes
• Missile boat pdf yes guard yes
• Fast attack craft pdf yes guard yes
• Motor Torpedo Boat pdf yes guard yes
• E-boat pdf yes guard yes
• MAS pdf yes guard yes
• Motor Gun Boat pdf yes guard yes
• Steam Gun Boat pdf only
• Patrol Torpedo Boa t pdf yes guard yes
• Harbour Defence Motor Launch pdf only
• Examination vessel pdf yes guard yes
• Coastal Motor Boat pdf yes guard yes
• Q-ship pdf yes guard yes
• Motor Launch pdf yes guard yes


Naval mine craft • Minelayer pdf yes guard yes
• Minesweeper pdf yes guard yes
• Destroyer minesweeper pdf yes guard yes
• Coastal minesweeper pdf yes guard yes
• Coastal minehunter pdf yes guard yes
• Danlayer no idea


Command and support •

Command ship pdf yes guard yes
• Auxiliary command ship pdf yes guard yes
• Fast combat support ship pdf yes guard yes
• Combat stores ship pdf yes guard yes
• General stores issue ship pdf yes guard yes
• Ammunition ship pdf yes guard yes
• Oiler pdf yes guard yes
• Collier pdf yes guard yes
• Hospital ship pdf yes guard yes
• Auxiliary repair dock pdf yes guard yes
• Crane vessel pdf yes guard yes
• Auxiliary crane ship pdf yes guard yes
• Auxiliary ship pdf yes guard yes
• Fleet tender pdf yes guard yes
• Destroyer tender pdf yes guard yes
• Submarine tender pdf yes guard yes
• Depot ship pdf yes guard yes
• Evacuation ship pdf yes guard yes
• Dispatch boat pdf yes guard yes
• Floating fuel station pdf yes guard yes
• Net laying ship no idea.

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from france

this is a example of my country ( from wkiy). if someone has the description of a leviathan super heavy transport i will be glad that it is addded here for comparison. beacause if both are similar in size i don't see why on can be carrier by special space carier and the other not.

Name: Charles de Gaulle (R91)
Namesake: Charles de Gaulle
Ordered: 3 February 1986
Builder: DCNS
Laid down: 14 April 1989
Launched: 7 May 1994
Commissioned: 18 May 2001
In service: 18 May 2001
Renamed: Laid down as Richelieu, renamed Charles de Gaulle in 1987
Homeport: Toulon, France
Nickname: CDG
Honours and
awards: Jack with the colours of the Free French Forces (front) and the ribbon of the Ordre de la Libération (back)
Fate: Active in service as of 2011
General characteristics
Class and type: Unique aircraft carrier
Displacement: 37,085 tonnes (standard)
42,000 tonnes (full load)[1]
Length: 261.5 m (858 ft) overall
Beam: 64.36 m (211.2 ft) overall
Draught: 9.43 m (30.9 ft)
Propulsion: 2 × K15 pressurised water reactors (PWR), 150 MW each
4 × diesel-electric
2 × shafts
Speed: 27 knots (50 km/h)
Range: Unlimited distance; 20 years
Endurance: 45 days of food
Capacity: 800 commandos, 500 tonnes of ammunitions
Complement: Ship's company: 1,350
Air wing: 600
Sensors and
processing systems: DRBJ 11 B tridimensional air search radar
DRBV 26D air search radar
DRBV 15C low altitude air search radar
Arabel target acquisition radar
Electronic warfare
and decoys: ARBR 21 Detector
ARBB 33 Countermeasures suite
ARBG2 MAIGRET Interceptor
4 × Sagaie decoys launcher
SLAT (Système de lutte anti-torpille) torpedo countermeasures
Armament: 4 × 8 cell SYLVER launchers carrying the MBDA Aster 15 surface to air missile.
2 × 6 cell Sadral launchers carrying Mistral short range missiles
8 × Giat 20F2 20 mm cannons.
Aircraft carried: 28 – 40 aircraft,[2] including
* Rafale M
* Super Étendard
* E-2C Hawkeye
* SA365 Dauphin helicopter.

if you can read double eagle of dan abnett first you will have one very rare example guard force using only fighter like thunderbolt and not be part part of the space naval unit secondly the enenmy also use landlike air craft carier to transport it is fighter. and the guard slowly loose the war beacause of this landair like carrier. so if this happens in land on water world i think it is possible to have the same situation with water ship.

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from france

sorry double post