1) When Benjen Stark is killed, in this instance because of Valar, does he (and all those killed along with him) also shuffle back into the owner's decks? Or does the dead pile shuffle itself back in, with Benjen (and whoever was killed at the same time) going into the now-empty dead pile?

2) When exactly are titles chosen during the plot phase? The more specific question is, for instance, I play Counting Favors. Do I get to resolve the plot, and view the cards I draw before I choose my title?

3) This one is kind of long, specific and complicated. A Stark player wins a military challenge against a Martell player. The Martell player controls The Bastard's Elite (RoR) and one Bastard Daughter (OSaS). The Stark player controls Qhorin Halfhand (LoW), who participated in the challenge. The challenge was won by 4 or more STR. Couple of questions:

A) Does the Martell player have the opportunity to choose The Bastard's Elite to die for claim? Or is control of The Bastard's Elite immediately transferred to Stark?

B) Assuming that the Martell player cannot choose The Bastard's Elite, is it correct to assume that Bastard Daughter can be chosen for claim before the Stark player activates the Halfhand's ability, killing the Bastard Daughter? (Then forcing Martell to choose another character for claim)

Thanks for any help, it is much appreciated.

Incuus said:

1- i could be wrong but i believe that they would all be shuffled in

2- Titles aren't done during the plot phase, they are done during the title phase, directly after the plot phase

a- Yes, claim always comes first

b- claim always comes first

jack merridew said:

Sorry Jack, but these are not correct.

1) The Benjen example is even used in the FAQ as an example for how Moribund works (see page 16 of the FAQ). Basically it's like this: When a card leaves play, it is not immediately placed in the out-of-play area (for example the dead pile, or the discard pile) it is headed to. It is considered to have been killed, discarded etc., but it physically stays on the table while Passive effects kick in and responses are triggered. Only after all those passives and responses are done with does the card physically leave play and is placed in the respective out-of-play area. We call this state "moribund". This is exactly what happens with Benjen. he is killed, but he is still physically on the table. After he's killed, his passive ability kicks in and the dead piles are shuffled back. Then there's a chance to trigger responses, and only after those are done, Benjen (and all other characters who died with him, for example because of Valar Morghulis) is physically put on the dead pile.

Incuus, you might want to have a look at the flowcharts on pp. 18-20 of the FAQ and read the corresponding explanations. This will also clear up the issues you're asking about in your question 3. As Jack mentions, the short version of it all is that claim comes first, then passive effects, then responses.

2) There is no "title phase." Titles are chosen in the Plot phase, after the First Player is appointed.

Sorry for this reply-to-self, but I just remembered this thread. The old wisdom was that Titles are chosen after determination of the First Player, but before plot effects resolve. But there has been a ruling from Nate back in June that says the plot-related Framework Action Window in the plot phase needs to resolve completely (including all passive effects and responses) before titles are chosen. There's still no "title phase", but now it's a little bit like there was (to simplify matters somewhat). The point is, the way matters stand currently - yes, you do get to resolve Counting Favors before Titles are chosen.

BTW, I really think this ruling concerning titles should go into the FAQ. Who's with me?

ahahahahahahahahahah i try and help out in the rules forum and end up giving the wrong answers, thats it im leaving it to Rat and Ktom

Ratatoskr said:

ktom said:

Easier, and more correct too. It's probably a full-fledged Framework Action Window in its own right, with a Framework Event that says "Beginning with the First Player, each player chooses a title" or something like that. They could easily create passives and responses with the text "After titles are chosen...". Maybe they will. Maybe they already have.

In fact, they have! The plot in the latest chapter pack states "After all players have chosen Titles, choose a second Title from the pool of unused Titles and use both this round." I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but that's an example of exactly what you're talking about.

Yeah, I had that nagging feeling that I might have seen something like that, but I couldn't be arsed to look it up...

This plot means they will have to update the rule about refilling the title pool in 3 player melees (refill when there are fewer titles than players instead of when there are no titles) or face the situation where a player cannot choose any title.