Spawned from another thread, I thought I'd start this one to continue the 'discussion'

There seems to be some debate about effects that say "within X spaces", such as the Command ability and Spiritwalker.

I've always played this as a radius of effect, which can go around corners, but also even go across parts of the game board which dont exist. i.e. The effect is literally a radius effect from the source, which can go through walls. I'm not sure how I came to this conclusion but it is the way I have always played.

Others are suggesting that the distance has to be counted in spaces along the board, as if you were actually moving to it (but ignoring obstacles and stuff).

Is there anything official about this anywhere that I am missing in the rules / faq / other sources?

Effects (including Command, Spiritwalker, etc.) can not pass though the spaces between map pieces or though doors. You must count spaces on the board, but obstacles do not block them. I could not find this in the FAQ, but I seem to recall it coming up on the old forums.

I agree with this, as there is no accurate way to count the number of nonexistant spaces on the board. Plus that the card says "spaces" has always made me believe that it had to be spaces on the board.

Hi,

Big Remy said:

You keep saying this, but this is definitely not true! Every "nonexistant" space in question has, per definition, two "existing" board spaces parallel to it: one on the horizontal, and one on the vertical axis. If not, then there would be no legal target space for the aura to count to. So it's quite simple to use these parallel spaces to count the correct range.

There might be a rule or reason that says you have to use "existing" spaces, but it's not because you cannot accurately count them - you can.

If there's a clear ruling that says you cannot use "nonexistant" spaces (note that there's a bias in the choice of the term already!), I will use it. Until then, I don't see why a "nonexistant" space is nothing more than a simple wall, which was only left out because of practical reasons (no real sense for FFG to supply walls-only tiles that fit into the dungeon gaps...). And walls are no obstacle for things like Spiritwalker or Command.

-Kylearan

Kylearan, I am puzzled by your statement that you require a specific statement saying you can not go off the board. I am not trying to argue with you, but to me it would make more sense to require a specific statement that does allow you to count spaces off the board.

Kylearan said:

Alright.

Yes, I will concede that through the lack of something that says you can't use "nonexistant spaces" it makes how the abilities work less clear. And its entirely possible that I could be wrong. I'm not arrogant enough to say that in the end.

Quite simple huh? Take one of the vanilla Descent quests that is really spread out, use the 10 space SW and count along a diaganol between two rooms and tell me you accurately calculated the range. If I was your OL, I wouldn't believe you.

But your own arguement could be used against you. Show me a clear ruling that says you can use those "not containing a board" areas to count board spaces (because that's pretty much what the term spaces means in Descent just due to its usage) and I'll change my mind.

Let's look at this a little different. If effects like Command and Spiritwalker can use those spaces that means they are basically spheres with a radius of 3 (5 for SW) spaces. So I'm going to now apply the "nonexistant spaces are usable" logic.

Command and Spiritwalker can be used between floors of dungeon levels in RtL such as #32 Up and Down or The Caverns of Thull, the Valley of Souls and Fool's Rapids. If you set up the board exactly the way they look in the book then you can make it across those spaces. If it takes 1MP to go down a staircase, that means there is one space of distance between floors of the dungeon, which Command and Spiritwalker can cover regardless of standing next to the staircase or not.

So what's the diffference really?

Rednek said:

EXACTLY

Any thoughts on The Word of Vaal?

In our last campaign my heroes insisted that this item should work through a closed door, but I said it wouldn't. I can't recall the exact wording on the card, but it does make the issue somewhat ambiguous.

Speaking of, is Word of Vaal okay to use with Dark Charm? That is to say, Vaal specifies "enemies", so when you Dark Charm a hero who has it, do his allies suddenly become his enemies, and are thus valid targets?

The places where there is no game board does not exist in the game universe. It's your table. It doesn't count. If they wanted it to be a radius they would have said "within a 10 inch radius, use a ruler".

I use the simple method of just extrapolating the Breath rules: as long as a figure could fly to a space from the point of origin, it's affected by the area attack ability. For Word of Vaal, I also rule that Dark Charm temporarily turns monsters into allies and heroes into enemies, to avoid problems with Sweep, Command, and the Word of Vaal.

However, neither of these are official, I think. Might have to look up such answers.

Ah, but can figures fly across empty spaces that have no board?

That is the question.

Look: Big Remy, et al, I'm sorry, but that's stupid. The physical playing components would be designed the way they are whether the rules wanted us to count spaces between them or not, so your decision that those spaces "don't exist" is arbitrary . And counting spaces between the map pieces is easy , especially when diagonal distance = max(dx, dy); I would have complete confidence in my ability to count it out in any remotely plausible scenario, and if you chose not to believe me, that would merely mean you were a jerk. Even if the designers had very specifically and intentionally wanted distance to be counted between map tiles from the first inception of Descent and had that forefront in their mind throughout the entire design process, it is quite likely that the only difference would be that there would be a rule specifically saying that--the physical pieces that come in the box wouldn't change at all. Citing them as evidence is therefore completely invalid and unsupportable.

I play that walls and closed doors are impenetrable to all effects. I think this is a reasonable and simple rule, and it is consistent with every case where there is a clear statement one way or the other (no effect in the game is explicitly allowed to pass through a wall or a closed door). But this has nothing to do with off-the-map spaces; I play that walls are impenetrable even if there's an open, on-map space on both sides of the wall (e.g. quest 3, between areas 1 and 2), whereas you're apparently perfectly happy to let effects go right through in that case. And if I'm playing a quest like the Aerie (downloadable pdf), where there are specifically no walls at the edge of the map and figures are explicitly allowed to walk off the edge, then I would let effects like Command be traced off the edge of the map and back on with no qualms whatsoever.

Antistone said:

Stupid? Really? Yeah, that's a great way for me to want to actually listen to your reasoning. Grand move there.

I'm sorry, but if my reasoning is stupid than so is yours for the Aerie. The fact that is pretty much spelled out that Area 2 is a at least one floor if not more above Area 1 (all the parts about them being steep drops, falling etc etc) doesn't suggest to you that a figure in Area 1 would be more than 3 spaces away from one in Area 2? As for walking off the edge, any non-flying creature who goes off Area 1 dies and take damage from falling off Area 2. Even flying creatures take damage if they go off the edge from the drop of Area 2

The fact that this quest even says:

The outside edges of both Area 1 and Area 2 are not walls, but rather steep drops. They do not block line of sight (however, figures must still count range and movement using on-board spaces).

means to me that you can't do that. Command and Spirtwalker both have ranges, so you would have to use the on-board spaces.

What if you decided to set up the board with Area 2 off to the side? Does it actually change any aspects of the Quest? No, since you could still determine the correct edge to put players on when falling off Area 2. But it could drastically change how Command and Spiritwalker would work.

I've agreed and respected your opinion about a great number of things, but not this one.

If you've gone on for several posts repeatedly making the same invalid argument (even to the point of making extra posts with no actual new information just for emphasis, e.g. "EXACTLY"), that tends to make the reader feel that he needs to do something to snap you out of it before you'll consider contrary arguments.

Now, it seems my example with the Aerie was poorly chosen. I had forgotten the comment you quoted (though I'm not sure what it means--it seems to imply that you could trace range and LoS along totally unrelated paths for the same attack), and I was thinking of tracing range across gaps within area 1, not between area 1 and area 2 (clearly you can't determine distances between areas with no defined spatial relationship).

But the arguments you presented regarding the spaces "not existing" or being impractical to count are still bogus; I stand by my assessment. Even if your conclusion was proven totally correct (e.g. by official word), those are still preposterous reasons for reaching it.

Okay, I can accept that.

My arguement for the inaccurate counting of nonexistant spaces probably wasn't a good one in retrospect.

I still don't believe you are supposed to count those areas where there is no game board when determining the number of spaces for things like Command and Spiritwalker.

I think we can safely say that it is very well possible to 'count spaces' through walls (I'm not talking about different floors here).

However, the question that is still unanswered is if radiant effects are blocked by walls and doors.
I refuse to believe that they are blocked by walls because there is no gaming board there, but I do believe that they are blocked by walls because walls and closed doors block all effects. Unfortunately, I have nothing in the rules to support this, but that's our reasoning.

Hi,

McRae said:

These places don't exist and are "the table" only because it would have been silly to provide map tiles consisting only of walls. What exactly is there in the game universe then? Void? Nothingness? Pocket black holes sucking up all ranged effects? I'm all for throwing out common sense in favor of following the rules literally when playing RtL, but this one is silly.

McRae said:

We talked about counting spaces, not about radii. RtL uses the L1 distance metric, not the Euklidian (=L2) distance metric where you would need a ruler. But this is completely irrelevant to the question.

I'm with Siebeltje here. To me, what this all boils down to is the question whether walls block effects like Spiritwalker or Command, and it would be great to get this clarified at some point. Whether "space" includes "wall" and/or "nonexistant, unspecified tile" or whatever seems not to be clear unfortunately - so it's up to the individual groups to find a ruling.

-Kylearan

Fantastic. I go away for the weekend, come back to find a full scale argument

I think its fair to say there isnt anything official on this, so it needs to be added to the list of questions.

I took all my descent stuff with me at the weekend and was scouring the rulebooks for anything on this. Considering how long some of these abilities have been around, I'm surprised the topic hasnt come up before.

I can actually see it both ways, both options have their merit, and the wording alone is subject to interpretation. Personally I think of "Within 3 spaces" meaning exactly that. A radius of 3 spaces. There is no need for rulers, and counting the spaces is easy. We've been playing it like that from the start, and we manage.

However, as I say, I can see it both ways. I can understand how "within 3 spaces" could mean "within 3 real spaces on the board.

Now that I've heard both sides, I'm still undecided. I think at our next session, our gaming group of 5 people will have to take a vote on it

Big Remy said:

Uh, I haven't read the rest of this thing right now, but the answer is no, they can't. Walls and Doors block flying figures: Doors are listed as impassable in the rules and Walls are in the Breath example in the FAQ. So yeah, the answer is mu .

EDIT:

I think its fair to say there isnt anything official on this, so it needs to be added to the list of questions.

I think, since I'm extolling the virtues of my own house decision, that you've got a point there.

PS: What the hell? Editing your posts takes the quote tags out now? Who made this garbage?

EDIT 2:

........yeah, ok, this is inane. The actual effect is that you can't add new quotes after editing, so, uh, great.

I wonder, do Soar height rules (Blast and Breath negate height, area of effect abilities ignore height) apply for the Aire of Death?

Siebeltje said:

So if those walls and doors block those effects, then Command and Spiritwalker can't be counted across the non-game board containing area. All map pieces, except in the places where its left open for making connections between pieces have walls drawn on them that border those open areas don't they?

yeah, they do all have walls.

question added to the questions thread.