Thalin + Eastern Crows?

By qkershner, in The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game

First question:

We had Thalin committed to a quest with only a few cards remaining in the encounter deck. The last two cards of the deck were Eastern Crows. So based on the way Thalin triggers and the following passage in the rules book (After each player has had the opportunity to commit characters to the quest, the encounter deck reveals one card per player. These encounter cards are revealed one at a time, with any “when revealed” effects being resolved before the next card is revealed.) we could never resolve the quest. Each Eastern Crow would get revealed, shot by Thalin, and get shuffled into the deck. Then the Surge of the the Crow would resolve to stage the next Crow that was next in the deck, and the cycle would repeat. We couldn't move forward because the Staging never ended. What am I missing? Does the FAQ for Thalin suggest that the Crow gets killed before it can Surge, or does it 'remember' there should have been a Surge, even if it's dead?

Thalin

While Thalin is committed to a quest, deal 1 damage to each enemy as it is revealed by the encounter deck. FAQ: When an enemy card is revealed from the encounter deck, Thalin’s ability resolves before any keyword or “When Revealed” card effects on the encounter card.

Eastern Crows

Surge. Forced: After Eastern Crows is defeated, shuffle it back into the encounter deck.

Second question (much easier)

We were playing Northern Trackers against Journey down the Anduin, and then later against Osgilliath. In both cases it appeared that we were running the Locations off the Staging area, without actually Travelling to them, since they were getting progress tokens from the Trackers. Is that right? It seemed like we should have had to Travel to them to wipe them off the board, but the rules state (If a location ever has as many progress tokens as it has quest points, that location is considered explored and is discarded from play.) so we assumed they should be getting discarded whenever they had the appropriate number of tokens.

Thanks.

HomerJ said:

First question:

We had Thalin committed to a quest with only a few cards remaining in the encounter deck. The last two cards of the deck were Eastern Crows. So based on the way Thalin triggers and the following passage in the rules book (After each player has had the opportunity to commit characters to the quest, the encounter deck reveals one card per player. These encounter cards are revealed one at a time, with any “when revealed” effects being resolved before the next card is revealed.) we could never resolve the quest. Each Eastern Crow would get revealed, shot by Thalin, and get shuffled into the deck. Then the Surge of the the Crow would resolve to stage the next Crow that was next in the deck, and the cycle would repeat. We couldn't move forward because the Staging never ended. What am I missing? Does the FAQ for Thalin suggest that the Crow gets killed before it can Surge, or does it 'remember' there should have been a Surge, even if it's dead?

Thalin

While Thalin is committed to a quest, deal 1 damage to each enemy as it is revealed by the encounter deck. FAQ: When an enemy card is revealed from the encounter deck, Thalin’s ability resolves before any keyword or “When Revealed” card effects on the encounter card.

Eastern Crows

Surge. Forced: After Eastern Crows is defeated, shuffle it back into the encounter deck.

Second question (much easier)

We were playing Northern Trackers against Journey down the Anduin, and then later against Osgilliath. In both cases it appeared that we were running the Locations off the Staging area, without actually Travelling to them, since they were getting progress tokens from the Trackers. Is that right? It seemed like we should have had to Travel to them to wipe them off the board, but the rules state (If a location ever has as many progress tokens as it has quest points, that location is considered explored and is discarded from play.) so we assumed they should be getting discarded whenever they had the appropriate number of tokens.

Thanks.

1. As written in FAQ and you wrote above "...Thalin’s ability resolves before any keyword ...". Surge is a keyword. So both Crows will be defeated and shuffled back before their Surge will resolve.

2. You're right. Remove locations as soon as they have enough progress token. (Don't forget to resolve Response effect of locations).

LEGA said:

1. As written in FAQ and you wrote above "...Thalin’s ability resolves before any keyword ...". Surge is a keyword. So both Crows will be defeated and shuffled back before their Surge will resolve.

So, to clarify, the Surge keyword never gets a chance to resolve, or just resolves afterward?

HomerJ said:

LEGA said:

1. As written in FAQ and you wrote above "...Thalin’s ability resolves before any keyword ...". Surge is a keyword. So both Crows will be defeated and shuffled back before their Surge will resolve.

So, to clarify, the Surge keyword never gets a chance to resolve, or just resolves afterward?

It never gets the chance to resolve, since the resolution of Thalin's ability places the crows back in the encounter deck (there is no longer anything to resolve).

So the next question is:

If that's true, then if you have Thalin and only a crow left in the encounter deck, you automatically win the scenario (or lose, if a required Objective got discarded), since every quest phase with Thalin involved with just reveal/kill/shuffle the remaining bird over and over again?

HomerJ said:

So the next question is:

If that's true, then if you have Thalin and only a crow left in the encounter deck, you automatically win the scenario (or lose, if a required Objective got discarded), since every quest phase with Thalin involved with just reveal/kill/shuffle the remaining bird over and over again?

Not sure, but when drawn as the last card during the quest phase, the encounter deck is empty and discard pile should get shuffled back to form a new encounter deck (that is somewhere between the moment the card is drawn, flipped/revealed and Thalin killing and EC getting shuffled back):

"If the encounter deck is ever empty during the quest
phase, the encounter discard pile is shuffled and reset
back into the encounter deck." (p. 14)

If nothing else, it would solve the never-ending Eastern Crows issue (assuming you don't have other Enemies in play who would draw the last card as a Shadow card).

Hmm, I wasn't shuffling Crows back in when Thalin's effect killed them. I didn't consider them defeated unless they were actually attacked. I viewed Thalin's ability getting rid of them when they were drawn the same as if they were discarded as shadow cards.

Which begs the question, how exactly is Thalin damaging everything as it shows up? Is he just in constant whirlwind berserker mode, spinning and spinning as the point man (dwarf) as the group heads down the trail? Can't control where's spinning, he just bounces off of trees, rocks, orcs as he goes? sorpresa.gif

Marlow said:

Hmm, I wasn't shuffling Crows back in when Thalin's effect killed them. I didn't consider them defeated unless they were actually attacked. I viewed Thalin's ability getting rid of them when they were drawn the same as if they were discarded as shadow cards.

Which begs the question, how exactly is Thalin damaging everything as it shows up? Is he just in constant whirlwind berserker mode, spinning and spinning as the point man (dwarf) as the group heads down the trail? Can't control where's spinning, he just bounces off of trees, rocks, orcs as he goes? sorpresa.gif

This image is hilarious, and I will think of it whenever anyone uses Thalin.

Enemies are defeated any time they have damage on them equal or greater than their hit points, regardless of how it got there.