I know they're both rather old cards but I could not find the needed ruling in the forums. The question is this: If I Oasis my Viper and he attacks 3 times (due to me having fewer characters) does he get to kneel an opponent's bypassed character 3 times or just once on my first attack?
IMO I think that he can kneel 3 characters that were bypassed but we had a rather hot disagreement with another player in our tournament and I wanted to post it here.
Thanks in advance for all the help
You can kneel up to 3 characters, one for every challenge. Keep in mind that you kneel characters who have been bypassed by using stealth and that you use stealth once every challenge. This means you can kneel up to 3 characters assuming you can legally bypass them by using stealth.
Agree absolutely with the above post. There is no limitation on Stealth (or lost Oasis for that matter) other than once per challenge per stealth character.
Out of interest what was the argument against this working? There may be a fundamental rules misunderstanding to clear up beyond just this card combo...
Marshal Lambert said:
Other than that, the answers here are correct. Imagine a character that said "Stealth. After this character bypasses a character using Stealth, kneel the bypassed character." That character has, say, a Holy crest and after using it in an Intrigue challenge, you use Distinct Mastery to stand it and attack again in a power challenge. Can it use its Stealth? Would its passive effect kick in and kneel the character it bypasses? Lost Oasis turns TRV (or any character) into that hypothetical character.
Thanks to all for the immediate responses and for clearing this out
Follow-up question: is the text given to a character by Lost Oasis "...kneel the bypassed character." considered an ability that has been triggered? Specifically: can Bloddrider cancel the kneel ability?
Bloodrider cannot cancel it because the gained character ability is passive and not triggerred (when your character bypass another you have no choice but to kneel the bypassed character)
FFG should clarify things in the FAQ the becasue I came to the same conclusion as you did previously:
Consider the whole "target" thing. There is a basic English definition and there is an in-game use of the term. In general context, the basic definition of "target" is effectively "an object singled out for a purpose." So in an effect that says something like "if a character is attacking alone, that character gets -2 STR," the character attacking alone would appear to be, by the basic definition of the word, a "target" of the effect. But because AGoT has a specific in-game use of the term (ie, that a "target" is the object of an effect that specifically uses the word 'choose' to identify said object), it is not. So by basic word definitions, all specific objects would be targets (something that some other games do mean when they use the word "target"), but in AGoT, only specific objects identified by the word "choose" are considered targets.
Same deal here with "triggered." There is a basic English definition and there is an in-game use of the term. The basic definition of "trigger" (as a verb, anyway) is "anything initiated by another thing happening first." But AGoT's specific in-game use of the word (specified in the FAQ by the definition of "triggered effect") is "any card effect initiated by a player's choice to initiate or use it." So when you see the word "triggered" in a card's effect or to be applied in an in-game situation, that is the use of the word in question and you look for that element of player choice - just as whenever you see the word "target" in a card's effect or to be applied in an in-game situation, you look for the word "choose" to be part of that situation.
When you look carefully, pretty much every place where the rules or FAQ talk about passives being "triggered," you are looking at examples, illustrations, or other "plain language" contexts, rather than rules-based contexts.
It's not so much that FFG needs to clarify in the rules that "triggered" means "player choice." They have already done that. It's more that people need to see when the word "triggered" is being used generally or for its in-game context. FFG could rewrite the entire rules and FAQ document to substitute the word "initiated" for "triggered" in the non-game context, readers can flex their reading-comprehension muscles and become a bit more aware of the context instead of assuming the word is always used the same way in every possible situation (there is not a language on earth that doesn't require context to give words their full meaning), or some combination of the two.
<Snipped for relevance and bolded for emphasis>
ktom said:
Tweaking my original question based on the information you provided, would the "Stealth" ability provided by Lost Oasis be considered a "triggered" ability targetable by Bloodrider?
Use of Stealth is not optional, so no. Additionally, keywords cannot be cancelled.
Tokhuah said:
radiskull said:
When an attacking character has stealth, the attacking player must assign stealth whether they want to or not. It is right there in the framework for declaring defense and must happen, as much as revealing plots or counting dominance STR must happen. So Stealth is not initiated by a player choosing to initiate it.
Now, when the attacking player actually DOES go to assign stealth, the rules say he "may" choose a character controlled by the defending player who will then be ineligible to defend in that challenge. So there is an element of choice there - including the option to choose no character at all. The thing to recognize here is that the element of choice is in determining the target, NOT in initiating the effect. The fact that you can choose no target (and thereby make resolution of the effect meaningless) doesn't change the fact that no player decided to initiate the effect. It still happened because the game situation said it must - not because a player wanted to it. Stealth may resolve, if at all, exactly the way the attacking player wants it to, but it does not initiate that way. And whether or not something initiates by player choice is what makes it "triggered" in game terms.
So Stealth is not initiated by player choice, and is therefore not considered a triggered effect. (Compare to Ambush, which only initiates when a player wants it to, making it a triggered effect).
But of course, there is always this part to remember as well:
radiskull said: