Thank god that we can ignore some of thoes stupid rules. My favorite from errata is that you can only make single attack after charge

coolzyg said:

Yeah, I never understood that change. Probably due to the possibility of some over the top Talent combos that might unbalance things, but I generally felt the added options gave some flexibility to combat and that the nerf put us back in "who the hell wants to charge into a Swfit Reception, anyway?"

Amaimon said:

Wait, what? Okay, let's get RAW, baby. "All skills are based on a Characteristic. When a character makes a Skill Test, he is testing a Characteristic. If he rolls equal to or less than his Characteristic on 1d100, then he has been successful, if he rolls higher then he has failed." - Black Crusade, Core rulebook, page 90, under "SKILL TESTS".

The Rules as Written seem rather unambiguous. Given the above, it seems you can spend infamy to reroll dodges. And, if I may be so bold, that's a fine use for them. Why yes, I would like to reroll my dodge against that Thunder Hammer to the face, thank you.

Cheers,

- V.

I personally don't think the rules have ever been written in a tight enough fashion to say whether Skill tests are Characteristic tests (though, yes that statement is fairly unambiguous. However, some things that refer to Characteristic tests don't much much sense if they applied to all skills based on them either). Sometimes it seems appropriate to treat them as Characteristic tests and others it would seem sensible not to. I would just say common sense applies.

And in the case of Infamy, common sense would dictate that you can indeed re-roll skill tests, as otherwise you are seriously undermining their utility.

Answer a) is insane lol

Rule Question:
I have a question concerning the combination of swift-/lightning attacks with other combat moves.

a) How does feint plus swift/lightning attack work? Does feint make the whole swift/lightning attack unevadable?

b) How does counter strike work when countering a swift/lightningattack? When am I allowed to counter? After blocking all hits? after blocking 1 hit? Can the counter strike itself be a swift/lightningattack?

c) If I dual wield while charging with swiftattack. Can I make an additional swiftattack for my offhand?

a) I'd say yes here. Could be pretty nasty here.

b) Did you mean Counter Attack? You would make the Parry reaction against the multiple attacks as per page 107, with each Degree of Success discounting a hit. As long as the test is successful, you can counter attack, even if you don't parry all the attacks. You can't counter attack with swift/lightning though, as per the top right of page 121.

c) Yes; this is mentioned in the first paragraph under Swift Attack on page 239. You can only do a Standard Attack after a Charge though, as per the new Errata.

Hope these help Mike and thanks for playing!

Answers to my questions on MIU and, as they aren't clear everywhere, my interpretations.

1. I have some problems about when does MIU bonuses work:
tech-use - do I have +10 to work on and repair particular machine that I'm connected to or +10 to all tech-use tests as long as I'm connected (like with interface port and data pool)?
pilot, drive - that I know
logic - same as tech-use
inquiry - as it's used to find people, gossips and such tings, I dno't know how it works here
weapon skill test - in rogue trader it was BS so it was for ship/vehicule guns (and possibly advanced guns), is it deliberately changed, is it an error or does it work with both?

"You need to be connected to the machine you're trying to repair/work on. You plug into it and that helps with the tech-use. Yes, it's WS (you can plug into a melee weapon), but we will very possibly make it BS as well in an errata."

I still don't know what exactly logic and inquiy are for but I'll rule that logic if for hacking and inquiry for finding data.
And now I'll happily plug myself into my servo-arm (because I don't know how to plug into power sword and why would i help me).
Also I'll give +10 to both WS and BS, but each weapon needs another MIU acquisition (fo more see 3.).

2. What things can be acessed by MIU, there are dreadnoughts, titans, aircrafts, ground vehicules and advanced veapons. What else? Can power armour be acessed with MIU?
If WS instead of BS is deliberate, does it appl y to dreadnoughts and possibly power armour (if it has interface) only (because you don't use WS with your aircraft)?

"It's more for less expansive technologies. Dreadnought implantation is way more than just an MIU plug-in, as would be operating a Titan, but I could see a GM allowing it but with some hellish modifiers. Vehicles, yes (that's why Drive and Pilot are there)."

Since I could try to test-drive a dreadnought, power armours are propable a yes (meaby that's there +10WS comes from?). Trust me, I'm a heretek.

3. Rogue Trader has MIU Weapon Interface, if there should be bonus to BS instead of WS, does such weapon benefit from it?
Does ballistic mechadendrites count as such weapons?
If I have shoulder mounted pistol, can I use it and another weapon with two weapon fighting? If I use two-handed weapon, can I use it and the pistol? If I have two handguns in my hands, can I use all three?

"It depends on the nature of the bonus, so I'm hesitant to give a blanket yes, but it would usually help you here.
Nope, that's not what it is for.
Yes, Yes, Yes (if you have two weapon fighting skills)."

Weapon MIU is treated as a free action atack. That stacking with two weapon fighting and ballistic mechadendrite it gives quite nice wall of fire.

4. Wireless MIU allows to directly control servo-skulls and servitors. If I have a combat servitor and decide to directly control it, does it get +10WS/BS (whichever it is)?
Does it use my combat talents or it's own (two weapon fighting, step aside and such, some like true grit would apply in both cases)?

"Sorry, but which system is this for? "

I took the wireless part from lore instead of rule books so the answer is fair. Needs some houseruling.

Vandegraffe said:

I have posted this elsewhere, but since this thread exists I will ask it here: How does the Auspex Scanner and the Embedded Auspex actually work? Does each use of the latter require a half action, or does that swtich the device on (which you can then leave on presumably, which is overpowered) and get all the benefits, like increased Awareness and possbly rerolling Perception rolls. Does the scanner version also require a half action for each use? What determines whether you use Awareness or Tech Use when using it?

Replies to some random rules questions - questions/answers edited for brevity/readability.
Came with the comment "we'll hit them in the next Errata as well (note that it's possible they may be slightly different there though, as we group-think on the Errata)". so correct unless they aren't :

Lightning Claws, p163:
1.) The description states "can be used by Legionairres and Humans" but they lack . Can they be used with the Legion Weapon Training talent?
1a.) Are they easier to obtain with the Ancient Warrior talent (p118)?
------- > Both can use them, yes. Yes, that Talent would cover them. Technically 1a is correct, but we'll errata the heading for Lighting Claw to add "(Human and Legion)" to it.

Ballistic mechadendrite, p190:
2.) States 'may attack as a Reaction'. The DarkHeresy errata includes the option to use it as a half action (same as servo arm & manipulator mechadendrite). I assume that this errata also covers the BC version?
------- > Yes. The "may attack as a Reaction" is in addition to using it as a regular attack.

3.) The description mentions the Compact upgrade, which isn't in the Weapon Upgrades section (p169). Should we use the Compact Upgrade from Rogue Trader or ignore this reference?
--------- > If your group is ok with it, then yes use the RT Compact rules. Otherwise, just ignore.
[Compact upgrade also in DH but RT version is a little more detailed: p133 - half wieght, half clip, half range -1 dmg, conceal bonus]

5a.) As cybernetic weapons can be used to make a Standard Attack, are you allowed to use any of these weapons with the two-weapon wielder talent(s) e.g. chainsword and servo-arm, or manipulator mechadendrite & balistic mechadendrite?
5b.) Would attacks with cyber weapons count as off-hand or main hand attacks if you didn't also have ambidextrous?
--------- > Hmmmm… I'd say yes here. I would say they would be off-hand.

6a.) Can all cybernetics only be used to make standard attacks, including the Ballistic Mechadendrite, which should be capable of semi-auto/full-auto fire?
6b.) Does this restriction apply when they are used as a reaction (it isn't explicitly stated)?
---------- > I'm not seeing where a Ballistic Mech can only be used to make a Standard Attack, and cannot be fired in semi-auto. It's down for melee mechadendrites, as otherwise you could do things like Lightning Attack with them and that wasn't how we envisioned it.

7.) If the Multiple Arms trait plus Two-weapon Wielder Talent allows you to make additional attacks due to extra limbs, do cybernetic limbs like servo arms & manipulator mechadendrites count?
------- > Again, not how we envisioned them, but if your group and GM is ok with it then feel free to work them differently.

9a.) Do multiple bonuses stack from taking multiple copies of the same cyberware?
9b.) Do the bonuses from cybernetics stack with all other bonuses?
9c.) The utility mechadendrite specifically states it counts as a combi-tool. Does this mean it doesn't stack with the bonus from using a combi-tool?
9d.) Does the bonus to toxins gained from the Mechanicus Implants trait Respirator Unit (p144) stack with the Bionic Respitory System, Respitory Implant or Respirator clothing?
--------- > Nope, same one's won't stack but different ones would. No on stacking utility with combi-tool. The various respirator aids will stack, as long as an item doesn't say it "duplicates the effect" or "counts as" another item (like Respirator Implant and Respirator).

Multiple Arms trait, p141
10a.) States "for each pair of arms…it may make an additional attack". So a genestealer with 4 arms gets +2 attacks?
10b.) Assuming it has two-weapon wielder (melee), this means a genestealer can make 4 attacks a round; 2 unarmed attacks with it's 'main' arms, then 2 extra attacks with the extra arms?
10c.) Each of which, per the errata, could be lightning attacks?
10d.) Do the extra attacks gained count as part of the half-action Standard/Swift/Lightning Attack action or as a separate untyped half-action?
--------- > Yes, X/2 = additional attacks. Yes. Yes. The former.

11.)Generally throughout the rules you round up when dividing. Does this apply to multiple arms e.g. if i have multiple arm (3) do you get 1 additional attack or 2?
-------- > Generally, you round up. Here though, the wording has it that for every pair of arms (meaning a full pair) you get the extra attack, so essentially you are rounding down.
Hopefully we always do extra arms in even numbers, but this is Chaos after all!

12.) How do hit locations and multiple hits work when the target has extra limbs - do we need new tables or can only the 'primary' limbs be hit?
-------- > Technically you should track each limb as a separate location, so if Arms are hit, you could randomize which one was hit and track its status. This could get cumbersome, so only tracking the primary limbs might be preferable.
[not really a definitive answer]

For clarities sake Multiple arms appears to work like this:
Multiple Arms (3) - gain +10 to climbing/swimming, gain 1 extra attack (3/2, round down)
Multiple Arms (4) - also gain 1 extra attack, 2 total (4/2)
Multiple Arms (5) - no benefit (5/2, round down), 2 extra attacks total
Multiple Arms (6) - also gain 1 extra attack, 3 total (6/2)
-------- > Yes, that's my read as well.

Additional Limb, Slaanesh (p291):
13a.) If the Additional Limb is lithe and dextrous enough to be better at unarmed attacks, and you can choose for it to have a hand at the end, why does it not gain the +10 WS with weapons held in that hand?
--------- > It's just not how we envisioned that Gift, sorry. It may be a hand, but attacks with it are unarmed meaning no weapons.

Additional Limb gift (p290):
14a.) If you can choose to have a "claw or other appendage", should it still count as a regular unarmed attack and not gain the natural weapon trait?
--------- > The former. You would need the natural weapon trait as well for the latter.

Tail gift (p297):
15.) Can tails make swift/lightning attacks?
15a.) In the case of a Tzeentch tail holding a gun can it make semi/full-auto attacks?
15b.) Do you need the Two-weapon Wielder talent to gain the extra attack with a tail, similar to how Multiple Arms works?
15c.) Assuming it counts as an extra, separate attack, can you use the tail attack after you charge (which limits you to a single melee attack, preventing two-weapon wielder but possibly not other additional attacks like tail or Reaction attacks from a servo-arm)?
15d.) For clarity's sake, does the extra attack count as an untyped Free action or as part of any Attack action?
-------- > Yes. Yes. Yes . Using your Tail would count an extra attack, so you could use it for your Charge attack, but not in addition to another attack.

unnatural characteristics -
17.) do these apply to all new limb/tails e.g. a chaos marine tail would get the +4 Strength to damage?
-------- > Yes, these apply to any situations where that characteristic would be used.

Errata, p6, last question "starting talents" - Confusingly worded. I think it means only talents bought with xp have to meet the prerequisites, and as such should be clarified to read:

q: When creating a Heretek can the player select the Armour Monger Talent or the Weapon-Tech Talent without meeting the prerequisites e.g. Trade (Armourer) or Tech Use +10?
a: Yes, you do not need to meet the prerequisites for talents chosen from your race or archetype list. However, you must meet all prerequisites for every advance bought with experience points, even if that advance was an option from your race or archetype list that you did not choose. For example, if the Heretech chooses Armourmonger from his archetype list he does not have to meet the prerequisites of Int 35 or Trade(armourer) (he already has Tech Use). If he also wanted Weapon-Tech, he would have to purchase it with experience and he would have to meet all the prerequisites (Tech-use +10, Int 40)."

-------- > Nice wording and yes we'll adopt it in in the next iteration on the Errata, thanks!

Nice one, I always though that extra attack for multiple arms was for every extra pair of arms (rounding up) so like that

Multiple Arms (3) - gain +10 to climbing/swimming, gain 1 extra attack
Multiple Arms (5) - also gain 1 extra attack, 2 total
Multiple Arms (7) - also gain 1 extra attack, 3 total

thanks for clearing that up, also for the mechadendrite stuff, that's useful as well.


15c) Charge doesn't exclude two-weapon wielder (there was question about it somewhere before). More attacks for us.


Seriously,, this tread needs to be turned into nice big home-made errata, with index.

Orthus said:

I think that it is meant that with three arms you don't get one extra beyond your normal dual wield attacks. How do the rules say about using two(or more) two-handed weapons, with multiple arms?

If we take it on logic (with BC? hehe) using two melee great weapons seems so impractical that it becomes impossible. 2-handed+2 1-handed could work. With ranged weapons this becomes a different thing (how much more people could Rambo kill if he could use another ak-47 with second pair of hands?). But mechanicaly it's not specified.

vogue69 said:

How do people usually play this ? It does seem silly the way it works.

That's how my players and I interpret this. So far, it seems to be working.

So if I am reading the questions and answers part 10 posted by Orthus, Genestealers can do 4 lightning attacks on their turn?

This…. This change to lightning/swift attack and multiple weapons is making less and less sense. I know that Genestealers are supposed to be lethal, but 4 swift/lightning attacks is starting to sound just a bit too many attacks.

Sorry if I have understood wrong, but I'm really tired and don't have Genestealer talents/statblocks handy at the moment.

The way me and my players have gone with this is that you can do swift/lightning attack with one weapon and a standard attack with the other(s).

It's easy to get an absud amound of atacks in this game with ight mutations:
additional limb x2 + tail + arm-mounted weapon MIU + mechadendrite (reaction) = 4+1+1+1=7
If you use it to do ranged atacks and have tail (tzeentch) you can use all of them to make full auto, good luck dodging.

Meaby making swift/lightning/semi/full-auto full instead of half action will make it a little more logical, but it is to be tested.

They already used to be full actions, and to be frank, I like this system much better. Its just that I don't really see the absurd amount of "full auto" attacks that you can do in one round to be realistic(as far as that can be said about anything Warhammer related ) or really that fun. Atleast my group doesn't find the spaghetti western style of roleplaying fun, in which the guy who goes first wins because the best way to go is to get two weapons, extra arms, high weapon skill, good modifiers to the attack and just lightning/full autoing away.

The Genestealer thing is about right. DO NOT get into melee with these things. I always remember back to my Space Hulk days when I think of Genestealers going toe to toe with Space Marines in Terminator armour. Space marines have to be careful but they can take them out but often go from healthy to critical in one round if they fail to kill it and are in melee. Remember that they can't do the whole attack setup on a charge.

I do have to admit that my experience with BC is using these rules for my Deathwatch game so I don't have much experience with balancing PCs and mutations and such, but it's not like you get to pick exactly which mutation you get. The +/- Infamy bonus shouldn't get you that much variance untill you are quite a long way in. And you don't even get that on every single mutation because of the whole 'failing' thing.

I think it's best to resolve it as a single Swift or Lightning attack and add a modifier for using a second weapon. Perhaps a +10 for one extra weapon and +20 for three or more weapons, and then alternate hits between weapons. This obviously needs to be fine tuned, but something to keep it simple would be good.

ShadowRay said:

The Multiple Arms trait's extra attacks only apply to natural weapons or held melee weapons. So two five attacks for ranged. You could also easily argue that the Tzeench tail counts as an extra arm, so you'd either need one of those or a second tail of Tzeench to get the attack from that. Plus, the dendrite IS using your reaction for a compact weapon [although admittedly that could be a compact inferno pistol or wrath plasma or the like].

Why not change Multiple Arms this way?:

-First pair grants "Twin-Linked" to melee attacks if using Natural Weapons. The character may also gain this benefit with melee weaponry, but requires one additional weapon of identical reach and balance per action affected in this way [you could supplement your power-fist with an unwieldy weapon, or two with two, but not a power-fist with a power-sword]. If used to obtain a bonus hit, the bonus hit is with the extra weapon.

-Second pair and beyond grant an additional maximum hit to melee swift and lightning attacks [as in "ROF one higher"] each.

-Prehensile Tzeench tails count as an additional arm for these purposes.

Its a solid boost, but not as ridiculous as having extra full attack actions.

I´m still a bit fuzzy on the Wealth background, is it:

A) a extra requisition "roll" but with a +20 limit instead of a -10?

or

B) a standard requisition "roll" but with a +20 bonus (so say you could request one best quality plasma pistol, something that normally be impossible as it´s -30 but the +20 bump it up to -10, just at the limit)

Its B, minus the part about having to actually roll.

Kiton said:

hench the quote marks around the word, thanks for the answer.

Orthus said:

It's been a while since this topic has been discussed, and the answers in this thread cover it pretty nicely, but I still kinda have niggling doubts about it all:

I'm coming at this from the direction of the Additional Limbs -mutation, which has a section as follows: "The character gains the Multiple Arms Trait, with a value equal to the number of limbs he started out with, plus one for each time this gift is applied.".

So in the case of a regular human, that would come out as Multiple Arms (3) (I'm disregarding the use of the word 'limb', as you could nitpick it to count legs as well, though the Multiple Arms -trait is pointed more towards… arms).

Going by the table above, as accepted by FFG, this one additional arm would then result in an additional attack, even though elsewhere additional full pairs of arms are required.

Sorry for confusing anyone

BR,

Mikko the 3 armed mechanoid icon of blasphemy renegade Mark of Tzeench bearing terminator armor wearing power fisting sorcerer of heavy flamer +1