I'm not running one on Black Friday. I can't find one that I like for my House.

Masters don't fit my playstyle (too combo-y) and are too "flavor of the month" anyway.

My House doesn't ahev neough Knights

Seasons require the darn birrds and almost mandate the sub par Raven Search Plot - plus nine cards or so of Ravens and support

I played Knights of the Hollow Hill last fall - and my deck is slow already = probably can't afford the loss of setip out of this one.

wlidlings and Brotherhood are too neutral heavy for my taste and don't have emchanincs that fit my main deck stategy.

So - if I ahve a tight 60 card deck that does what I want (fairly rpedictably - good flops, semi consistent draw for a non draw House. excellent character removal and some notabel uniques) Am I at a competitive disadvantage? Have we gotten to the point where Agendas are mandatory?

*Looks at watch, waiting for Rings' rant*

One of my best decks doesn't run an agenda.

I don't think agendas are mandatory at all. And you hit the nail on the head, all of the agendas have some intrinsic drawback that has to be designed around. And I don't care what people say, no agendas can be just as competitive.

Yeah I don't think you have to run an agenda. The Agenda either gives your deck a theme (ie Siege of Winterfell), or supports an existing theme (ie Brotherhood or Nights Watch). If your deck already has a theme, but there isn't an agenda that supports it, you wouldn't be running one. I kinda wish there was a holy based agenda.

Stag Lord said:

With the errata to the Maester's Path requiring the printed trait, you can't just add it to a 59 card deck with an Apprentice color... and unless you're playing At the Gates for an Advisor to the Crown in Targ (which is what I'm assuming w/ Not enough Knights in a non-Draw house). Then probably not. I've run "the Path, Summer, Winter and KotHH out of there... as you say, they all need to be designed around.

On the upside, against a Stark Army deck (don't know how many of those you see out there... you're lack of an agenda makes the Northern Cavalry Flank kneel to attack. Which is a good thing. Unless they want to drive every deck that way, I'd like to seem some other cards like that... which are good, but slightly weaker when you're opponent "flies solo."

goshdarnstud said:

goshdarnstud said:

RANT RANT RANT!

Nah, this doesn't deserve one, we are not talking about design space/mechanics. Just playstyle and the meta.

I have the same issue, but the Maester agenda is too good not to run w/ 2-3 Maesters (Aemon and your house's Maester du jour usually for me) and 2-3 links. If you can't win 2-3 challenges first or second turn, then your deck has failed. You get an effective 6/0/1 plot, attachment control, deck thinning, and some other toolbox use...no houses can't use that. Oh, and many houses then get to easily use Outwit which is strong.

Your playstyle is your playstyle. I am just saying no deck has a viable reason not to run it (again, not saying you can't win without one...your chances just go up). Even power rush, which gets all the beni's and a great Maester that protects vs. Valar *shrug*

I'm guessing I know which house you're running Stag, and if I'm right, then I would say "yes, run the maester agenda." But I think you know where I stand on that anyway.

In general though, I agree with what other people have said. I'm expecting there to be at least a couple Greyjoy decks running winter, so choosing the summer agenda is high risk. If you wanted to run the winter agenda, that might not be terrible (would be interesting)...but even then, it's 5-7 card slots, as you mentioned. Also agree on KotHH...that agenda is pretty unplayable outside of Martell (as far as I can tell, but I could be wrong).

The one truth I've found in tournaments though is to always just run what you like. In the end, there are so many unpredictable factors. Even if you want to win so badly you choose to take *the* competitive deck, you may run up against people randomly playing counters to the deck, and then lose to someone who has a record of 0-2. If you run what you enjoy, there's still a good chance you'll do well, and even if you don't, it's much more fun. Also, people tend to play the decks they enjoy more, so that they become much more familiar with that deck. In this game, knowing your deck and playing it well can matter just as much as the quality of the deck itself.

To answer the original question from a pure competitive/Jaime standpoint, I would say yes, you need to run one. I answer from the position that the Maester's Path agenda has replaced 'no agenda.' Many have said adding the MP simply makes a deck better.

You may not WANT to run it, but not running it - or another agenda your deck is built around - makes it weaker.

I avoid playing MP as I don't care for it myself, but if I am working with a deck that has no agenda, I feel something is missing...

I don't think you absolutely NEED to. I have only one deck myself that doesn't have an agenda, and its arguably one of my best.

Thanks for the feedvack. I just wated to gauge community opinion and get a sense for what other metas are experiencing.

For the record, i'm with rings and oranegdargon. i am aware that competitively I am palyiong at a disadvnatge w/o an agenda. ist a play style thing in this case - i don't like ubiquity of maesters. But if you are running no agenda - be aware: teh Maetser's Path offers a way to fill any hole you may have. At a really low cost. Whether or not this is a good thing si very much a matter of opinion.

I'm also starting to think that comparisons with toher Agendas are invalid - i don't think LCG has ever seen an Agenda as good as this one.

I think this weekend sort-of proved the point. The 'Erick decks' or whatever you want to call them, had Maester's agenda with only one chain. Obviously I think it most likely would have won without it (the players can confirm that or not), but why not?

Twn2dn said:

Thanks, now I'm going to have to prove you wrong!

Prior to Gencon, everyone said KotHH was not tourney competitive. I made top four in both events using my agenda (with Martell as the house card), so it seems people changed their minds.

Now, it is unplayable outside of Martell? Ok. I always need a challenge!

I think it is very viable in Targ as well. ~You will have to prove to me anything except those two.

Oh, and as I can attest in Erick's VERY modified cube draft, it is a REALLY good agenda without the set-up drawback

Dobbler said:

I thought "everyone" (not sure who we're talking about here, exactly) was saying it wasn't playable EXCEPT for in Martell, and possibly Targ...? I know I personally said it was viable in Martell all along, though harder to get working post-At the Gates errata. Either way, I haven't flipflopped...yet.... (I really hope I'm not lying here...it wouldn't be the first time )

In any case, I do think pretty much everyone (me included) was surprised/shocked to see it make a top 4 finish in BOTH events, so BIG kudos there.

Greg, I'm hoping you get this thing working in houses other than Martell. As (one of?) the most creative deckbuilders in this game, if anyone can get this working, you can.

I think kothh is viable with GJ, at least in melee. Combos real well with saltwife/wendamyr. not sure I like it in bara/lanny/stark so much.

Fieras said:

I think GJ KOHH can be joust-worthy too, although tougher to justify over Winter or Maesters.

If we're expanding to melee, at the Vegas tournament there were 3 or maybe even 4 Bara decks running with KOHH.

rings said:

HoyaLawya said:

Well, since I couldn't force _you_ to draw out your deck... what did he do to it? ~And hopefully it was nothing like what that wight is doing to Mr. Bruno.

Maester_LUke said:

___

Stag Lord said:

~If you can spare a few slots for some Kingsguard, there's a great agenda I might recommend.

Fieras said:

I don't know about in tourneys but kothh seems to work okay for our meta's bonkers House Bolton decks. The extra gold, combo-free access to effects like core Arya Stark's stealth strip and terror in the dungeons, and buff initiative help exploit Bolton's cheap/bonkers characters. And since Boltons have so much raw STR (great for make an example and minstrel's muse!) not much reason to run Siege as an alternative…

RobotMartini said:

I'd be interested to see a deck list for that kind of Bolton build... I mean the real trade off is that your total gold equals out after 2.5 marshallings, but you don't get to potentially "draw" into 7 cards of your deck. And in my Bolton builds, it's typically a 5 card average. The game doesn't seem to have closing power except for MaE/Claim 2 power challenges and I hadn't tried the Muse. Do the games go long enough to make the bonus gold worth it in a deck with such cheap dudes?

Maester_LUke said:

One guy in our meta runs a similar Bolton deck; he's found a variety of uses for the KotHH influence. It's certainly not the strongest build ever but what it does, it does well. I'll also throw in my opinion that you don't need an Agenda to make a competitive deck.

Coming right from Stahleck, I'd like to offer an Euro perspective on the question.

Because Stark is just so much more prevalent than in North America, the mere existence of Northern Cavalry Flank is an important factor when players consider Agendas. I've heard of players who run GJ Winter without KoW because of it. Or Stark players who build MIL heavy decks without SoW. That card alone does a fine job of culling the gratuitous use of Agendas. Personally, I'd like to see more cards like it printed.