I read the Lexicanum article on the Alpha Legion and how they still use Imperial battle cries. I can't imagine that this goes over well with other Legions. Also, the Alpha Legion primarch apparently turned traitor with the intent of destroying humanity in order to destroy Chaos with it. How much of the Alpha Legion follows this plan in the present?

I'm thinking it might be better to simply ignore all of the stuff from the Legion novel. It sure gets rid of much of the goofy crap.

Alpha Legion is sort of the first Renegade Chapter. There are other chapters in the various foundings that turned to chaos, or were simply made excommunicate traitoris by the IOM for one reason or another. Alpharius (or Omegon) was contacted by The Cabal and basically told "Humanity has to die to stop chaos." and the Primarch(s) thought this was a good idea, seeing as how the alternatives led to death anyway.

Alpha Legion is broken into many smaller cells, and i would say that some fully believe they are still true to The Emperor, while others perhaps are actually openly worshipping chaos. I belive it is more complex than "they are evil" or "they are good".

Double Post, sorry. But it's also worth noting that much of the information about Alpharius Omegon is suspect. The one who wrote it all down is accused of chaos taint - but that in itself could be something that the Alpha Legion planted. Thats part of the complexity of it all. There is no way to tell what is true and what isn't with them.

Never read any novels about them, just the Index Astartes entry and what tid bits of information presented in the CSM codices (starting with 3rd edition).

From there it appeared to be as follows:

The Alpha Legion are followers of the ruinous powers, though they are not going overboard with their faith. They more than most other Legions still a military organisation, with ranks and officers rather than a religious brotherhood.

They are the only legion that cultivates heretical cults on imperial worlds in any sort of big style. Sometimes a religious cult, sometimes a more worldly underground resistance against imperial oppression, as it suits them.

Though they follow the ruinous powers they fight their own war against the imperium and don´t get involved much with other Legions or chaos forces sprouting forth from the eye of terror.

Their organisation is fractured to suit the needs of a guerilla warfare. Much of the Legion is operating in small cells, though they still fight for a common goal, the fracturing of the Alpha Legion pretty much ends with their terror cell like oraganisation. In all other aspects, they´re probably more unified than any other Legion, the bonds of soldierly comradery is strong in the Alpha Legion.

They also have larger forces capable of planetary invasions, though probably not strong enough to seize a tightly defended planet without the element of surprise and softening the defenders up with insurgencies.

I´d say that the others don´t trust an Alpha Legionnaire farther than they can throw him, but acknowledge that they undoubtedly pull their weight in the fight against the imperium. Some might even admire them for not seeking sanctuary in warp and hanging in there, in imperial domain eversince. Some of the older veterans of the horus heresy might hold a grudge against them for not being at their side in those days.

Anyhow, that´s just my PoV on them.

I think that Moepp have some pretty good ideas about the Alpha Legion, and in my own view the idea of Cabal and destroying Chaos and all that seemed pretty weak to me. I prefer the idea given in the Black Crusade core book that the Legion is trying to show they turned against the Emperor in order to test themselves against other Astartes and prove their own martial powerness against older legions.

Gurkhal said:

Hi Gukhul,

If what is written by the Warhammer 40k wikia and Moepp (regarding the CSM codex) holds true, then they may still be loyal to the emperor although in a heretical way. Though after a few millenia their objectives might have shifted much more (as per the BC core book). Although I suspect only Alpharius and Omegon knows how far they have slipped. Therefore their battle cry "For the Emperor!" maybe genuine and not a mockery of the loyalists after al.

They are not loyal to the emperor. Though I think they can be seen as sort of anti-imperial freedom fighters. That doesn´t mean that they are "nice" though.

"For the Emperor!" and similar battlecries are used to confuse imperial forces, and it is not uncommon for Alpha Legion forces to repaint their armour to match a loyal astartes chapter. If they are identified as what they are, they sometimes use em anyways to mock and taunt the enemy, though probably mostly against loyalist space marines, in an attempt to take advantage of their pride (or hubris) and provoke an impulsive reaction.

Gurkhal said:

Two things:

Firstly, it's a mistake to consider Chaos Space Marines as being extensions of their Legions as Loyalists are of their Chapters - the Legions all but ceased to exist as coherent military organisations millennia ago, with what remains more akin to scattered warbands loosely bound by half-remembered traditions and the few unbroken bonds of ancient loyalty.

Secondly, everything you read about the Alpha Legion is a lie. Including this. Every source concerning the Alpha Legion is, as far as I'm aware, deliberately and intentionally contradictory, to sow doubt and confusion rather than provide any clarity. Whatever the truth behind the Alpha Legion, we don't know it... at best, we only know fragments of the story, enough to lead us to all manner of conclusions, none of which are necessarily correct (consider Legion - we never actually see the decision that Alpharius and Omegon make... we have literally no idea what they chose to do with what they had been told, and while people have come to conclusions about them... nothing is certain).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

It´s equally a mistake to think that all legions of old are but fractured squabbling splinter groups without any sense of unity and coordination. Especially those that have known higher echelons of command or are famed for their highly efficient and resilient chain of command.

Namely, the word bearers, the black legion and the alpha legion. Dunno the status quo of the iron warriors. The word bearers are kept in unity by the council of sicarius. There are rivalries and even infighting is not unknown, but the council keeps things from getting out of hand, and it keeps the legion focused.

The black legion is splintered into warbands of all sizes, but when abaddon or one of his lieutenants calls upon them, everyone heeds the call, everyone knows his place (more or less) and the legion works like a well oiled machinery.

The current command structure of the alpha legion is unknown, however, a highly efficient one, that can compensate losses with ease has ever been attributed to them. Furthermore their operations have extensive planning phases of decades, centuries or even millenia. The amount of coordination and logistics involved does not speak the language of marauding warbands interested in wanton violence and plunder. And I pretty much doubt that GW deliberately writes bull in their index astartes entry.

moepp said:

Is it chain of command, or force of personality?

A Space Marine follows his Captain's orders because his Captain has superior rank and authority, and is to be obeyed. A Chaos Space Marine obeys the Lord of his warband/host/etc not because of rank or bestowed authority, but because that Lord is powerful, forceful and commands obedience from those lesser than him... a subtle but significant difference.

moepp said:

Disparate warbands ruled by a variety of Warsmiths.

moepp said:

It's a religious organisation, ruled by a priesthood in the name of a figurehead Daemon Primarch who may or may not actually be present, and continually riven by discontent between the various Dark Apostles and the Council of Sicarius (Kor Phaeron and Lorgar - the two senior-most members of the Legion's commanders - are ever at odds with one another).

moepp said:

They wouldn't if Abaddon wasn't the one summoning them. He doesn't lead because he's their designated leader, he leads because he has the iron will to command the dubious loyalty of many, and the menacing presence to back up his orders.

And that's my point - even when the Legions maintain some semblance of unity, they're still fractious and driven more by the wills and ambitions of the powerful few than anything else. The Legions as they once existed do so no longer, replaced by things that bear their names and remember their traditions, but which do not cleave to them nor embrace the order that such

moepp said:

The first two paragraphs alone of Index Astartes: Alpha Legion make it clear how little is actually known about them, and the account it gives of Alpharius' discovery is actually stated as quite likely to be incorrect. The article reiterates frequently how secretive, unknown and generally mysterious the Alpha Legion is, and much space is given over to material noted to be speculative or of dubious accuracy.

The Alpha Legion are a deliberate enigma, written such that so little is known about them for certain as to defy easy definition or explanation. Other sources have done little to clarify, and from what I've read and heard over the years from various people is that this isn't an accident.

So basically no better than orks. I find that hard to believe, csm lack the numbers to get away with that.

Things have changed since the great crusade, and it´s definetly not the same soldierly discipline. But your description sounds like they where disorganised gangs of thughs who occasionally band together for a greater cause. By that logic they wouldn´t be much of a threat to the imperium and definetly not the most capable forces the ruinous powers can muster.

Figures like abaddon or erebus have been leaders since the great cusade, and definetly not just by being big and mean. Your description looks like a good match for the world eaters, who truely ceased to exist as a legion or any sort of organised force.

BTW: about the word bearers for instance the index astartes says: the word bearers have remained a unified, if loosely organized, legion.

Many legions are severly fractured and don´t exist as such anymore. The my knowledge, that is the case with the four single-god-aligned legions (world eaters, emperors children, thousand sons and death guard) aswell as the night lords legion.

Other than organisation, I don´t believe this is the case with the remaining legions. They might be plagued by internal rivalries, inter legion politics that occasionally culminate in bloodshed a backstabbing every once in a while and things like that. But all in all they still cling together as always. No one needs to share it, but that´s my perspective on things.

And I do view the alpha legion as being especially loyal to eachother and their cause, as I percieve it as impossible to keep up their level secrecy, professionalism and coordination without being so.

moepp said:

Given that the Orks are arguably one of the most successful and enduring species in the galaxy, I hardly think they're a poor comparison. Orks may be straightforward, but they're not stupid.

Thing is, the situations where colossal hosts of ancient vengeful warriors muster together to rain destruction upon the Imperium are the minority by far, requiring exceptionally powerful and cunning lords of Chaos to gather and vast resources to attempt - indeed, that's what having an Infamy of 140+ represents - the influence, reputation and power to gather immense armies, and the resources to equip and carry them through the void that they may drown the stars in blood (of course, such things are no guarantee of success...).

The rest of the time, lacking the same infrastructure of manufacturing and communication that the Imperium have, will be spent raiding the Imperium (and each other) in smaller groups to gather supplies (ammo, fuel, wargear, slaves, etc - because those things are finite, even if money does actually grow on trees on some Daemon Worlds) and waging relatively petty conflicts upon the whims and ambitions of individual Champions, the visions of warp-touched Seers and the oft-misinterpreted will of the Dark Gods.

They can't hope to wage the same kind of constant war the Imperium wages - they don't have the resources... so it comes down to a simple matter of might makes right.

Maybe we where talking of two different things.

I was strictly talking about the individual legions. Not the CSM in their enirety. And I am well aware that the CSM´s ability to perform grand scale operations is limited and that the legions are legions in name only and do not have the numbers they had during the great crusade.

And yes the orks are successful (though I do think they do lots of stupid things while they´re at it), but without their nigh endless numbers they wouldn´t be. CSM would be all but extinct if they´d be like orks.

Deepstriker said:

Very possible of course, its after all the Alpha Legion we are talking about. Still I myself don't believe much in the theory that they are misunderstood loyalists of some kind of another. Seems more like bunch of shenanigans (spelling?) unleashed by the Alpha Legion on the Imperials.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

1. While its true that the Chaos Space Marines are not tied as strongly to their legions as the loyalists Space Marines are tied to their Chapters I do think that legion have some influence even after all these years on most of their formal members.

2. Know about the trickery of the Alpha Legion although I tend to support my favorite version of them to get some order in regards to them and structure things up a bit.