I only have one question for now. Hopefully somebody can shed some light.

Can a squad on a Lv2 hill attack a squad on another Lv2 hill if there is forest in between? Normally forest blocks LOS but is a Lv2 hill high enough to see over the forest?

waging_war said:

Yes, they have LOS.

Buildings and forests only block LOS completely at ground level. They are only one level high.

that is what I was about to write aswell, but i quickly checked the rules and if you read page 23 (determining line of sight between units on the same level of elevation) after reading this the reads saam to say that any blocking terrain between units at the same elevation will block LOS. I cant find anything that excludes units being on lv1 or 2 hills.

My buddy and I compromised. We decided a squad on a Lv1 hill didn't have LOS to another squad on a Lv1 hill over a forest but squads on Lv2 hills do. We still want to definitively put the issue to rest but this will work for the time being.

I think that units that are both on the same elevation (lv1 or lv2 hills) should beable to see each other with blocking terrain between them. as if one unit is on a hill and the other is below with blocking terrain there are blind hexes, as per the rules, so if this is the case, this then shows that the blocking terrain is at the same lv or lower than the hill otherwise if it was higher there would be no LOS at all and all hexes would be blind. So with this it is only common scense that units that are both on the same lv hill with blocking terrain between should beable to see each other. Though the rule book dose not seem to allow this, IMO it is just common scense. If it is not allowed then this just controdicts the rules for LOS at differnt elevations.

Edit: just wanted to add that I have always played that if two units are on lv1 or lv2 they can always see each other, unless there is a lv2 hill between 2 lv 1 hills

Just sent a message to FFG to try and clear this up, although i woudn't hold my breath as i have sent a number of rules questions over the past year and have never heard back.

Just sent a message to FFG to try and clear this up, although i woudn't hold my breath as i have sent a number of rules questions over the past year and have never heard back.

Thanks alot man. We actually feel alot better knowing we're not the only ones confused by this. It's only a minor problem to an otherwise killer war strategy game. To be honest, we used to always play A&A Miniatures and there was at least one of these rule debates a game about almost every aspect of the game(the rule book was brutal). So with that said, TOI still ******' kicks ass regardless.

That's a good point about the blind hexes. I never thought of that. Sort of changes everything.

Changes everything? (your thoughts on LOS between units on hills?)

To me by allowing blind hexes when units are at differnt elevations only means the blocking terrain is lower than the hill so if it were between two hills, those hill should have LOS

wow I cant beleive it a response from FFG, my first one in a year.

here is what i sent them and their response:

Rule Question:
> If there is a unit on a level 2 hill and another unit on another
> level 2 hill with a building or forest hex between can the units see
> each other?
>
> Same question with level 1 hills. The rule book seems to suggest
> that they do not but I find if this is the case it contradicts the
> principles behind the LOS between units at differnt elavations
> (blind hexes)

Greetings Mark,

You cannot fire if it is a building between because it is blocking
terrain. You can if it is a Lvl. 1 hills between because both targets
are at the same or higher elevation.

Thanks

FFG

Not the answer I was expecting as this just condradicts LOS and differnt elevation and make no sence now.

When I said "this changes everything", I meant your blind hex interpretation makes complete sense and I had not even thought of it. As for the response from FFG, that doesn't make sense and, frankly, doesn't help at all. We're gonna stick to the following ruling:

A squad on a Lv1 or Lv2 hill have LOS to another squad on a Lv1 or Lv2 hill regardless of blocking terrain in between unless blocking terrain is of a higher elevation.

This is based totally on what you said about blind hexes and doesn't trump anything in the rule book. What do you think?

thats is how i have always played it, i thought it was just common scence and never really looked into the rules to much until now. The ruling makes no scence like you said so I will still be playing the way I have always been.

There are other rules regarding terrain that don't make scence aswell in the game. (for example the platue rule, say u are on a lv1 hill there is another lv1 hill in front then 4 clear hexes, you can not see any of the clear hexes because of the platue made by the hill in front of you (this is fine) but then say you r on a lv1 hill then a clear hex in front, then lv1 hill and 4 clear hexes, now you can have LOS after 2 blind hexes from the 2nd hill, this is not fine as the lv1 hill would still make a platue its no differnt in hight to the first example.

I don't know if you have ever played conflict of heroes, but the terrain rules make much more sence and are easily incorporated into toi, im finding im reverting to the COH terrain rules (regarding how it effects LOS and such) when i come across rules that just don't make scence in TOI.

FFG argue that they make the rules like this to keep things simple, but i argue that by not using common scense they are making things more confusing

Ya the plateau rules are a little iffy but I'm only gonna worry about one at a time. What company makes COH?

academy games, search for it on boardgame geek. I own storms of steel and price of honor

I would say its on the same level of complexitly and scale as TOI (maybe more rules but they make sense, so not as confussing) it dosnt use minitures it uses 1" counters they look pretty good and the boards are amazing and uses 1" hexes. It also uses differnt mechinics in running the game.

Don;t get me wrong i love TOI its just some of the rules are anyoing as they dont make scense, (i have also replaced the armour in the game with world tank museum minitaures they are very nice looking) if you go on boardgame geek im jesters_race and have some pics in my gallery.

Well i sent an email back to FFG asking about the rational behind the rule, and this is what i got

Unfortunately I cannot shed any light on the theory behind it.

Should you have any further questions about a particular rule or example, feel free to submit them.

Thanks

FFG

So they don't know the theory behind their own rules, this is very worring.

Aussie_Digger said:

The person answering seems to have been under the impression that there could be buildings on hills. With the current material available, there are only blank, barren hills.

I guess, the question should have been:

"If there is a unit on a level 2 hill and another unit on another level 2 hill with a building or forest hex at ground level between can the units see each other?"

Aussie_Digger said:

I guess that the people knowing the game are either busy with other projects or no longer available.

The rules clearly mean that buildings and woods at ground level do not block LOS at level 1 or higher, because otherwise you would not be able to see anything behind a building (and not just in the blind hexes) from a hill.

Normaly I dont have any problems with LOS, but yes some rules regarding hills could be cleared up.

What I enjoy about ToI is that the rules are usually easy and fairly easy to understand. Still there are a few typos and unclear rules, which I real want to fix. Thus,I dont want expansions, I want a book, ToI versjon 2.0 where all published scenarios are balanced, and all rules are cleared up. And I want it as a book. Cuz I have all the miniatures. As of today, I would estimate that atleast 50% of the published scenarios are broken to the point that they are unplayable. Thats to many.

I've personally never had a problem with a scenario being "unbalanced". I've played each base game scenario numerous times and never had a problem with one side winning an overwhelming victory. Each scenario has an attacker and a defender. If both sides just line up on either side of the board and charge each other(A&A minis style) the game will be "unbalanced".

KlausFritsch said:

The person ansewering was Robert Kouba he has designed the normandy and fury of the bear expansion as well as a number of scenarios. So he would know that there are no buikdings on hills.

KlausFritsch said:

Well the guy who sent me both the responses should know the game as it was Rob Kouba who has designed 2 expansions and a number of scenarios for ToI.

Could you point out where in the rules it points this out, as i can't find it anywhere. The rule book clearly points out that if there is blocking terrain between 2 units with no elevation difference between them then there is no LOS. and my response from FFG (rob Kouba) says that it dose block LOS. Your last point is what i have tried to point out to Rob that his answer and the rule book contradicts the whole rational behind blind hexes.

I'm gonna stick to what we decided yesterday. Forests, buildings, etc. only block LOS at ground level. A squad on Lv1 hill has LOS to a squad on Lv1 hill even if there is forest between. It just makes more sense.

waging_war said:

I will also be playing this way, (well this is how i have played since i got the game) like you said it just makes sense