Hello all,

My group and I have just finished reading through the Book of Judgment, which we purchased in anticipation of our newest addition rolling up an arbitrator. My players have raised a bit of a questioning stink regarding the new, 'standard' arbitrator shotgun. They seem to think it's too powerful, at 1d10+9 damage and scatter to boot.

Now I've been DMing for a very, very long time, but I will admit that in games I've never taken too much of an interest in the statistical analysis of things. 1d10+9 seems a little powerful for a basic shotgun, especially with scatter and semi-auto. That being said I've had a Sister of Battle with power armour and a bolter from the get-go and had no problems ensuring she didn't steal the glory or outstrip the other players.

In the experience of more mathematically minded DMs + players, or simply those who have brought Dark Heresy up to a likely higher rank than we've reached, do you think the shotgun in Book of Judgment is a possible typo, eg. 1d10+6? Or does the lack of pen, or some other reason, balance it out?

The players have just reached Rank 6, but I run a pretty thrifty campaign, so the characters are rolling with upgraded hand-cannons and Sollex las weapons for the most part. Would an arbitrator with that new shotgun turn everything to mush at this rank? Should I give him a combat shotgun instead and save that special one for Ascension or something?

Thanks

GreyHunter88 said:

A 1d10+9 Shotgun? The prince of projectile weapons, the bolter, comes along with 1d10+5 TEARING. While I am not a student in math, I think the 1d10+9 will beat this. Yes, scatter becomes quiet useless against armoured targets at long range... but I cannot see that this will become much of a problem in a regular games...

I'm voting for typo.

I'm voting typo as well. 1d10+9 is the damage an Astartes Shotgun does, at least according to the revised weapon stats in the Deathwatch Living Errata. Has anybody contacted the developers yet?

-Kirov

Thanks for the replies guys!

I didn't have access to my Deathwatch book, so I haven't been able to check the stats on the Astartes Shotgun. The Book of Judgment mentions that the arbitrators use a shell almost as large as the Astartes, but much larger than a standard.
1d10+6 seems a lot more reasonable, as that makes it better than an average shotgun but no more powerful against armoured targets than a hand cannon or something.

I'd be happy to contact the developers, but I'll admit that I'm new to this whole forum and Errata thing, so I'm not sure what the best means to get an answer out of them would be.

Definatly something wrong with that damage. There is no way that any shotgun should out damage a bolter. I would say 1D10+5 maximum for any non-astartes shotgun, scatter will ensure that everything at point blank range dies anyway.

GreyHunter88 said:

Scroll all the way down the page, and look for a link called "Rules Questions". Yes, I missed it too the first time around.

-Kirov

GreyHunter88 said:

The revised damage for the Astartes shotgun is in the errata, which is available in the Deathwatch section of the site as a free download. The one in the DW book does something ridiculous like 2d10 + 500 or something like many of the pre-errata DW weapons.

I do not have the book but if the pen is 0 I'd say 1D10+9 is ok. That makes it similar to the bolter against armored targets, better at close range and much worse at long range.

The astartes assault shotgun has something of about 4 or 5 pen I think so there still is a huge gap between the two.

Umbranus said:

I agree with this.

Pen 0 does a lot to temper that weapon. The damage is high, and against the unarmored masses deadly, but versus even a lightly armored target things change quickly.

I was thinking something along the lines of the PEN being a mitigating factor, but there are still some issues with that. Against unarmoured targets, it's much better than the bolter. It's only against armoured targets that most of the other weapons get to factor in their PEN and even start to compare.

Thanks for all the replies. I'll try that Rules Question route. I think I'm going to switch our Arbitrator out to a regular combat shotgun though. Especially against the Xenos and Daemons my group usually faces, who don't wear armour, that pure damage combined with scatter could make quick work of a lot of those.

My 2cents: 1d10+9 is absurd, even with no AP. That said, I doubt it's a typo, and suspect it's a sign of Power Creep. Lasguns got a similar make-over in Black Crusade ...

Indeed with the others here, the 1d10+9 is either a typo or its just stupid wrong. Either way, the only sensible reaction to it is "**** no". After all, if it is equal to or out pulps an amour piercing shell that explodes inside the target (as well as the Heavy Shot cannon which needs to be braced or suffer a -30 due to its incredible recoil in delivering such an awesome load of shotgun goodness), there is something wrong.

It would seem that the DH supplements might be going the Rifts direction.

1d10+9 for a shot gun. That's. Just. Stupid.

Black Crusade arrived in the mail today, and I got to check some of the new weapon stats.

The Legion Shotgun in that game does 1d10+6 with no pen, and 4 less clip than the arbitrator shotgun. I'm really starting to think that the 1d10+9 is a little over the top, and that someone meant to turn that FROWN upside DOWN...

By that I mean turn that 9 into a 6...

GreyHunter88 said:

I'd say that's it.

A "Legion Shotgun" (CSM Weapon from BC) has 1d10+6. I would be really astounded to see that the Imperial Arbs come around with something heavier.

Gregorius21778 said:

Even d10+6 is up threre though. More damage than a bolt gun? Why wouldn't the Space Marines all carry one for saving bolt ammo while blasting unarmoured foes?

Zakalwe said:

Well, I guess that the enemies a ©SM has to face normally does not come with armour By the way, the "Legion Bolter" is not 1d10+5 either. It is 1d10+9 (X; Tearing). Which only emphasizes furhter how overpowered a human-hand-sized 1d10+9 SHOTGUN is.

Zakalwe said:

You do know that the astartes assault shotgun does 1D10+10 pen 4, don't you?
So why sould any SM chose to take the arbites shotgun?

And with the right ammo (slug rounds) that means it's plain better than the boltgun in every aspect except range and clip size.
It does more damage, it's felling an reliable and it can full auto.. all things the boltgun lacks.

And referring to fluff the arbites always hat equipment that was better than that of normal humans, especially guard units.

Umbranus said:

Actually I did not. And I find it very "funny" that their is som much difference between the "Legion" shotgun and the "Astartes" version. Mew....

The weapons in Deathwatch are just silly, that's why.

The arbitrators might have better equipment than the rest of the Imperium, but to that degree? Seems silly. Why do the precint marshals all use bolters and stuff? Do they get a downgrade upon promotion? Why do Stormtroopers and other elite divisions of the military not use those weapons? Why is it so superior to the Mechanicus skitarii shotgun? Why is it better than the Legion shotguns from the Traitor Legions? If their equipment is superior, why do they use cheap but reliable side-arms instead of high quality pistols of comparable power to their shotguns? Why are their standard stun-batons so crap compared to other elite melee weapons?

Why does the Mechanicum build these shotguns for the Arbites (and they do, it's specified) and not use them for their own secutors?

It is just plain silly... all sorts of ridiculous witch-stakes of Rykehuss and stuff aside, it is pretty much one of the best possible weapons to use fighting daemons. Especially under the updated rules. Not even to mention it can take alternative ammo.

It trumps basically any other in Dark Heresy except under very exceptional circumstances. I fail to see why the Inquisition does not equip all of its members with the weapon. It's not even expensive.

It might have been intentional, but it seems that you're being a little condescending towards us who think that its overbearing power is a little out of scale.

I didn't want to sound snotty, if that's what you meant.
English is not my native language.

As to why the more war oriented parts of the imperial forces do not use this shotgun is probably the same reason the SM do not use the astartes assault shotgun as main weapon: The range is too short.

There is no use shooting with a superior weapon that just doesn't have the range to hit their enemies.

I for my part like the damage code of the new arbites shotgun.
But I liked the ultra pattern to be a heavy weapon and hoped it would get a special rule giving it the accurate bonus damage despite being heavy. But the errata made it basic instead. Tough luck for me. It is quite possible that the next errata will change the new shotgun, too.

GreyHunter88 said:

Moreover, why would the Arbites use these shotguns? They're normally fighting cultists and gangers and so forth, not Great Knarlocs.

This must be a typo. There's been a lot of power creep, sadly, but not to this extent.

bogi_khaosa said:

They are Adeptus Arbities. They don't need to justify why their shotguns turn a mass of rioters, cultists, and anyone else in their way into stew. Overkill is not a concept they believe in. You have insufficient force and sufficient force.

Arbities need to be able to put down guard units if the need arises. If that means that they are armed with weapons that will pulp an unarmored civilian 3 times over, so be it.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Shotguns won't be very useful against a Guard unit, I would think. They've got long-ranged weapons and will probably be outside, not in an enclosed environment (usually). Scatter range is 3 meters.