I was wondering how this actually works.

Focus Power: is a Difficult (-10) Opposed Willpower Test

Then it says: The psyker may nominate a single target within range and line of sight, who may resist with a Willpower test......................

Does that happen after the Opposed Willpower Test or is that the Opposed Willpower Test? I´m just asking, because in a way both options seem plausible.

I mean, an opposed WP test (even with the +20 WP) is pretty much no defense vs a psyker, who just might compel you to kill yourself .

Adding to that, it´s also very cheap in terms of XP.

EDIT: Alright, I don´t believe in it anymore, pretty much every spell with an opposed test, has the same sentence in it. So the opposed test is the resist I guess (bit of joke imo). One could argue that the opposed test is akin to a "to hit" roll (the psyker worming his way into the other ones mind), while a seperate WP is the "evasion", but I don´t think so.

I'm fairly sure it is just one opposed test when the psyker activates the power.

Yes, the opposed willpower roll listed as the focus test is the only one rolled, and the only one the target gets to resist on. I'd also say only the psyker gets the penalty, to counter-act the fact that he's also the only one collecting the psy rating x 5 bonus to the roll. This keeps psy power activation quick and easy in terms of rules and dice, instead of multiple rolls and checks.

And yeah, your average, decent psy rating and WP psyker has a sickeningly easy time worming his way into most peoples heads and playing them like puppets. This is why people fear psykers. Because even when they can control themselves, they can violate people's minds with sickening ease. Or, you know, set **** on fire.

However, there's a variety of traits and talents that make it harder or impossible to mind probe and mess with creatures. All of them are glaring hints that something is up with said creature, but their darkest secrets are still safe from casual discovery by a curious psyker.

Compel/dominate was very hard to do in DH where you first had to pass power treashold and then passopposed WP test, your WP was lower than in other games and you could only try to overbleed the power with more d10s which gave you more chance of phenomena, and there always was 'closer than flesh'. Now you have +5xPR, psychic focus (+10 WP) and 10% phenomena chance no matter how many PR you are using.

Zone of Compulsion would be awesome now if not completely broken. Psychic powers yet again give player incredible edge.

ShadowRay said:

The enemy can also do the same, but the phenomena chance is not 10% no matter how many PR you are using, if you push than it is a guaranteed phenomena and we only lost tow psykers in two sessions because of that.

ShadowRay said:

Orthoproxy + Resistance (Psychic Powers) gives you +30 to resist Compel, and both are Tier 1 Talents (the former is Unaligned, the latter is Nurgle). Then, there's Strong Minded (Tier 2 Tzeentch) that lets you reroll failed results. Not to mention stuff like Null Rods and Blood God's Contempt.

Psykers are powerful, but the anti-Psyker suite is quite comprehensive in BC, especially since more powers than ever can be resisted in some way.

When I wrote 10% it was on unfeterred level compared with DH where each dice you rolled for achieving psychic threshold had 10% on it's own. Also there was Mental Fortess and it was suicide if you attempted zone of compulsion in a room full of high level characters.

Mind scan/probe/(whatever it's called now) was even harder to do in DH, now it seems extremely easy.
I was a little worried at first with the lack of dominate power in telepathy, but it seems that it went into aligned powers now.

And I am still a little amazed just how powerfull starting characters can be (comparing to DH as it's the only other WH40K system I've played).

Important thing is to push only when you have no other option (but it can rule - 60 starting WP, psy focus, psy rating for starting xp and push +6 (child of the warp) gives you 120. Now use it with psychic storm (110 - average 7 bolts) and aim it into anything (and pray for you now have 55% of perils) = overkill with newly created psyker.

Morangias said:

I partly agree.

Though a null rod is fiendishly hard to obtain, dependable on how accessible your GM makes such "high end items".

Othoproxy is not universaly useful. Besides boosting your resistance against psychic powers it´s also a serious roleplay decision (much like paranoia). It´s more than just getting a talent and reap the rewards. For my char, it´s not an option. The only archtype i´d get it with, without bothering about the side effect would be a heretek..

Blood God´s Contempt, though powerful, is again not suitable for every type. A very calm, calculating character with a mindset of not getting carried away by emotions might never get frenzy (the prerequisite) to begin with.

My irk with compel is not that it exists, it´s that it´s a full blown mindcontrol at a ridiculously cheap price. Akin to "petty magic" in other systems, in terms of "when can I do that".

Quoting the description: The psyker reaches into the target´s mind and forces him to perform an action against his will. The most powerful of psykers can force a man to take his own life, overwhelming even the basic survival instinct. Few psykers are that powerful , but the havoc a that a ruthless psyker can cause by bending minds is still considerable.

Yeah, I had quite a good laugh with that....

I partly agree.

Though a null rod is fiendishly hard to obtain, dependable on how accessible your GM makes such "high end items".

Othoproxy is not universaly useful. Besides boosting your resistance against psychic powers it´s also a serious roleplay decision (much like paranoia). It´s more than just getting a talent and reap the rewards. For my char, it´s not an option. The only archtype i´d get it with, without bothering about the side effect would be a heretek..

Blood God´s Contempt, though powerful, is again not suitable for every type. A very calm, calculating character with a mindset of not getting carried away by emotions might never get frenzy (the prerequisite) to begin with.

My irk with compel is not that it exists, it´s that it´s a full blown mindcontrol at a ridiculously cheap price. Akin to "petty magic" in other systems, in terms of "when can I do that".

Quoting the description: The psyker reaches into the target´s mind and forces him to perform an action against his will. The most powerful of psykers can force a man to take his own life, overwhelming even the basic survival instinct. Few psykers are that powerful , but the havoc a that a ruthless psyker can cause by bending minds is still considerable.

Yeah, I had quite a good laugh with that....

There's one incredibly simple way of resisting it. Mechanicus assimilation. One single Extremely rare aquisition and you are permanently and irrevocably immune to compel. TA DA!

And it's hardly full-blown mind control. It can only force a simple action, performable in a single round, for one round. Not exactly thralldom we're talking here. Not to mention the fact that actually trying to compel a suicide not only gets harder, it most likely requires several actions (how many legitimate threat opponents can you think of that can one-shot themselves in a single round?).

In short, I think you're severely overestimating the power of compel. True "mind control" lies within the domain of aligned powers, requiring a fair bit more work.

moepp said:

As long as you have a clear character concept, there will be choices that don't fit your vision and may even ruin your character for you. It's normal in pretty much any RPG I've ever seen. Still, all the options are there for anyone who's bent on being psyker-proof.

As for the Null Rod, unless the GM states outright that the item doesn't exist in the world of his campaign, there has to be a way to obtain it. Not easy, sure, but possible.

moepp said:

What's so funny about that? Human Chaos Psykers have the same starting WP range as Space Marines (which can be pushed even higher through Failings - choose the most optimal combination and you have a guy who rolls 40 + 2d10 to generate his WP, equivalent to the disturbingly focused Imperial Fists), and starts with a PR of 3 - just like a Deathwatch Librarian does. They are indeed among the most powerful of psykers from the get go.

Compare how Compel works for an average Imperial Psyker with a WP of ~31 and PR 1.

Reverend mort said:

Narrative ofc. You don´t resist, so there´s no diceroll needed as long as the right tools or circumstances (like being on a rooftop) are available.

@Morangias: I consider individuals with a PR of 7+ among the most powerful psykers. Idk, when I think of names like Ahriman, Zaraphiston or Eldrad Ulthran, a starting psyker is definetly far away from belonging to the most powerful.

moepp said:

First, while the existence of such prodigies can indeed make you feel not so great, they don't begin the roster of the most powerful - they close it. It's like saying a guy who can 100m in 10.5s isn't so fast, as he's almost an entire second behind Usain Bolt - 10.5 still puts you among the fastest people who ever lived. And, again, just as Eldrad will be easily tripling or even quadrupling your roll, you're easily doubling the roll of a vanilla imperial psyker.

Second, you can match those guys eventually. They can't have more than 10 PR, and that happens to be the hard cap for you as well. The sole fact that you can improve and at least hope to match monsters like Ahriman already lets you join the club of the most potent psykers, because most psykers in the galaxy have a fixed potential and can't improve.

Third, I find the idea that Compel meant guys like Mephiston when it read about the most powerful psykers hard to believe. Because seriously, forcing one person to perform one simple action is so much beneath what those guys can do. If the power let you sway entire platoons with one roll, I'd believe it meant Tigurius and pals when it spoke of the mightiest. For something like this, your starting BC character is certainly mighty enough.

Morangias said:

Psykers can have a higher PR than 10, that is stated in the book. 10 is just the limit for PC´s and adversaries within the normal scope of the game. I do believe an iconic figure like Ahriman (THE sorcerer basically) has more than 10.

That a spell like compell is beneath those individuals, I agree. Still I´m not happy with it. The psyker in our group has that spell and so far had no need of a psychic bolt (our first session was on a ship though and range wasn´t really an issue), compel can even be used quite like a psychic bolt vs hordes. And it´s quite a bummer when the toughest opponents just execute themselfs.

The problem with it is that the GM can´t really do much about it without immersion breaking measures. Most foes are unlikely to have a resistance vs that kind of things. The psyker is pretty unremarkable and doesn´t pose an obvious threat (he is dangerous but makes the appearence of a guy cowering behind cover, not really doing anything), so enemies suddenly starting to give him an increased level of attention seems pretty unreasonable.

Generally spoken, range is pretty much the only thing stopping a one suicide per round spree in most fights (Our psyker doesn´t do that to be fair, he´s doing pretty good job at being creative with it). The level of anti psyker stuff a GM can pack in ecounters, without getting implausible, is pretty limited.

I think 10 PR gets you somewhere at beta+ power level (the book says that PR 10 is for the most powerful psykers and daemon princes but I just don't agree). Burning Princess have PR 13 (I know system changed but it's still a good example) and is very low level alpha psyker.

The psyker reaches into the target´s mind and forces him to perform an action against his will. The most powerful of psykers can force a man to take his own life, overwhelming even the basic survival instinct. Few psykers are that powerful, but the havoc a that a ruthless psyker can cause by bending minds is still considerable. - only way to limit compel not to make anyone you meet kill himself is to allow certain actions after you hit certain PR (like 'thouth sending' has: sentence->black/white images->images->full experience).

And as was stated before commpel is only unaligned mind control (because for some reason powers cannot duplicate between gods/no gods)

moepp said:

First of all, sure, if you allow narrative suicides during combat, then it's great. I wouldn't though, because combat is one of those games were people tend to need to roll for most everything. I could swallow auto-hits, but certainly not waving the damage roll for the shot. He is most likely wearing armor, he certainly doesn't have time to remove his helmet and he doubtfully has time to fire more than once. In 40k, that makes his death uncertain.

Secondly, how can he use compel versus a horde? It works on one person. Sure they can start smacking and shooting inside the horde, but that would follow all the same rules for attacking a horde with the appropriate weapon. An attack which I suspect is not being done by the most capable of beings, since they're in a horde.

Third, the access to anti-psyker measures depends on the enemies. If they're facing gangers and thugs, sure, but those aren't really legitimate threats to a starting BC group to begin with. Resistance (psychic powers) is hardly hard to swallow on a few guys, not to mention increasing their WP a bit if necessary. Nothing implausible about certain hardened criminals being cool under fire and stubborn like mules. Likewise, the many benefits of the machine trait means that any ganger with the access to a bit of cybernetic endowment could score himself it and it's immunity to mind-affecting powers. Layer it on a few times, throw in some other cybernetics and some combat drugs and you got a legitimate threat for the entire group.

Third, so he kills one enemy per round, roughly, not counting the creative uses of worn grenades etc. So? Compare that to a combat psyker with a force weapon and lightning attack, or a Khornite berserker with a chain-axe and frenzy, or a heavy bolter toting ranged dude. All of these characters will, in general, rack up that many kills per round too, if not more.

Lastly, unless the group has a habit of killing absolutely every single witness to their fights, sooner or later word is gonna get out that, when these guys get heavy, people start shooting themselves in the head. Especially if their in the screaming vortex and/or facing a recurring group, people are gonna figure out their dealing with a psyker and prepare themselves accordingly. They'll do their best to score some hexagramic armor or, most likely, a psyker or two of their own! Unsanctioned psykers aren't exactly super rare when you know where to look.

Reverend mort said:

It´s on page 349-350, though I just saw that it is at the GM´s discretion.

At the GM´s discretion, certain psychic powers (such as Compel) that do not damage may still inflict "hits", meaning that portions of the Horde have been convinced not to attack, and so forth. In this case, the number of hits inflicted should be equal to the Degrees of Success on the Focus Power Test.

Further more I don´t believe that a "fighter character" kills one guy per round. He has the potential to, certainly, but things like dodge, parry, cover, and so forth make it very unlikely. Especially since parry and dodge are unmodified (only by ones own skill rating) tests one ones own ability, mostly. Not opposed tests against someone who racks up tonnes of more bonuses than you most likely.

To get to a similar level of defense (like dodge or parry) one needs Blood God´s Contempt.

I still think that compel is too cheap and accessible for what it does. As long as you are within range and los, there´s hardly any better spell to screw someone over. At a low power level anyways, later there are direct damage bolts that do craptons of damage, but your enemy might just dodge that.

moepp said:

All while the psyker also risks phenomena.

Still looks like a fair deal to me.

Psyker gets an additional +10 WP for his psy focus, the human has one in his starting package, Sorcerer will get one at character creation since it merely is average availability. You can also get +10 WP via Pride, Failing and Motiviation. So you can rack up a lot of WP for focus power tests at character creation if you want to. Our psyker does unmodified, unfettered rolls at 80something, fettered at 70something (starting character). The only one who "hits" better is the renegade with his Long Las. Our CSM get into that area of hitting things if they do a an aimed single shot at short range. Ofc, vs hordes it gets easier.

And none of the CSM has a heavy bolter yet, nor the infamy to realisitcally obtain one. Looting one is the best option.

Furthermore, you´re comapring a pretty prized heavy weapon (not so much as reaper AC or a hell hammer, but still) with quite a low´ish, pretty basic spell.

And quite frankly, a combat guy is combat guy a psyker can be a combat guy aswell and has every right to be so, but there are psychic bolts to do that, this just kinda feels, in lack of a better word "lame". At least at this early stage, where it makes every bolt obsolete as long as you can close in. Which isn´t that hard when most opponents focus on the guys with the guns blazing and there are other groubmembers who look more dangerous and close in aswell.

It wouldn´t surprise me if it evens out later on, but this early into the game I find this sort of "omnipotent" spell to be quite annoying. Interrogate, intimidate, Charm, Scrutiny? No need, I just force you to tell me, and you won´t lie. Psychic bolt, Weapon? Nope, I don´t need to kill you, you´ll do that yourself. There´s just pleatora of ways to apply it in usefully. To be true, its universal usefulness considering the "off the bat availability", baffles me atm.

moepp said:

You're making up problems. Or rather, all the problems exist because you're interpreting the power in an unreasonable manner.

"Shoot/hit yourself in the head" - he still rolls for damage and subtracts armor and toughness. At best it's treated as shooting a restrained target, and many guys can still take that.

"Throw a grenade under your legs" - again most guys can take it.

"Jump off a cliff" - how often do fights happen in locations that allow for such things? How many enemies are going to be standing within a Run action distance to that cliff?

"Tell me about X" - good luck with that. He's compelled to humor you for roughly 5 secs a pop, so it's going to be a pretty comical interrogation. Also, depending on the nature of X, it might as well be a suicidal order.

"Answer the question" - Ditto. And that's assuming you don't think "screw you" is an acceptable answer.

Compel is good for sowing confusion among enemy ranks. If you think it's viable as a combat mainstay, obviously you haven't seen what Force Storm or a melee psyker with Warptime + Force Weapon can do.

hmm, I´ll think about what you guys said. Seeing other opinions is definetly helpful to get a wider perspective on things. I wasn´t trying to bicker around or anything so, sorry when it came across that way (I hope not^^).

BC definetly comes as a bit of a culture shock. Coming from WFRP 2nd edition, where starting characters tend to be quite incompetent most of the time.

Well, anyhow thanks for the feedback

PS: I´m not the GM, I´m a player btw.

In that case talk to the GM! Say you feel like Psyker is stretching the definition of Compel quite a bit, ask if that's really how it's supposed to work. And if so, mention some of our suggestions and talk about how you feel he's being far more powerful than the rest of the group and it's making you feel a bit superflous in-game. Be nice, be calm, be mature, hopefully they'll be capable of taking the discussion without blowing up and ranting like children... unlike me

If he insist on keeping things like they are, ask if you (and maybe the rest of the group) can at least respec your character since you clearly didn't quite understand the power level of the game and was thus hesitant to be very point-effective unlike the Psyker. If he says yes, then just make a new topic on this board and ask for some hardcore mechanical optimization advice

And yes, starting BC characters are meant to be highly competent and potent. Not Ahriman potent, but that guy outpsykers greater daemons of Tzeentch!

Also, I can imagine you're getting quite some shock if you're coming from WFRP 2nd ed! That game is brutal in how incompetent it starts you of!