From page 198 of the Deathwatch Core Rulebook, available at Rank 5 for 2000 exp.

Fury of the Wolf Spirits
Action: Full
Opposed: No
Range: 5 metre radius x PR
Sustained: Yes
Description: The Rune Priest summons up the spirits of the Thunderwolves, Freki the Fierce and Geri the Cunning, unleashing them upon his foes. As long as this power is sustained, the Rune Priest is flanked by two spectral wolves that he may direct against his foes with a verbal command. The wolves cannot
be damaged by attacks nor can they be grappled (though effects that end or disrupt the power will affect them as normal). They also cannot stray outside the range of the power. Each Round on the Librarian’s Initiative, each wolf may make a single melee attack against any target within range (they move automatically into contact with their foe and are not impeded by any kind of terrain). Each attack will automatically hit unless Dodged or Parried. Freki’s bite inflicts 1d10 x PR Rending damage, while Geri’s Bite inflicts 1d5 x PR Rending damage with a Penetration of 3 x PR. Any target that takes damage from either Freki or Geri must make a roll on the Shock Table (unless the target is immune to Fear) adding the damage taken to the result.

So my Rank 6 Space Wolf Librarian (Rune-Priest, technically), gets two wolves that are immune to normal forms of damage, automatically hit for generous damage (typically sustained with a PR of 9 from Pushing) unless Dodged or Parried, and he still gets a Half Action to Smite or make an attack with his Force Axe, every turn.

So my question for these forums - what steps can I take to disrupt or end this Psychic Power? The only specific instance I can think of is using another psyker with a Psychic Hood to stop the original summons - and my Librarian often 'buffs' himself and allies before battle by casting multiple sustainable Psychic Powers, so there's no chance of an enemy psyker disrupting the ability when it happens. The trouble is, that's a smart tactic, and I don't want to punish my players for being smart. So what alternatives are there to Psychic Hoods, in this case? The wolves were a big chunk of exp for him, and he really likes them, so I don't want to take them away or nerf them into oblivion, but at the same time I need to make sure there's an element of balance in my game.

Have an Untouchable sent to assassinate him. No, seriously.

The wolves would either ignore him, or just die from touching him, and he'd have to rely solely on his physical abilities, lol.

Or you could just make a bad guy and rule that his super-duper demon weapon can kill the stupid puppies.

Well, if i might offer a more helpful answer....indeed, you should not just waste his nice spirit wolves; they are a good bit of fluff for the character, and, as you indicated, he paid xp for them fair and square. ANd it doesn't sound like he's abusing them: you just want to be able to counter them if needed, so their presence doesn't unbalance yer game...fair enuf.

Meself, I would impress upon the player the power and the sacredness of these spirit wolves. Let the player know that summoning such powerful allies of the Chapter is a heavy duty, not to be lightly undertaken. Indeed, it would be the player's responsibility to protect and care for these wolf spirits, and to keep them from spiritual harm (perhaps they may not be replaced if they do happen to 'perish' - Russ says you only get to summon 2, ever, so if you blow it, they're gone for good). (Could also hint that they may in fact be the spirits of ancient space wolves reincarnated in fenris-wolf form, so not only are they sacred, they're battlebrothers!) They may also disrupt any stealthiness, as their unearthly howls raise the very dead. Or they may leave the player to pursue some psychic spoor they detect through the warp at a rather inconvenient time (don't use this tactic too much!).

Also, they're warp spirits, so they're not gonna be altogether pleasant to be around - Fear would probly be a natural side effect of their presence (and good luck with any Black Templars in the killteam!)

Hope that helped some!

Taking a leaf from dark heresy, you could also make use of hexagramatic wards (if you've got access to dark heresy books they've got better descriptions than I give here). These can be added to armour to give them special resistance to psychic powers and warp based armour ignoring effects, added to weapons so they can actually damage the wolves or even as barriers which would stop the wolves from passing but allow the marines straight through. It would allow you to put sections into an adventure the wolves couldn’t be part of.

A different approach, something my players brought up to balance some of the harsher psychic powers would be to give the power a limit on how long the wolves were around for and how often they could be called, so they were only present for some fights and the player would have to choose when best to use them.

The limit on only have 2 wolves that Zappiel mentioned sounds really good to, as it’d be a pretty big event when one of them died and would make for a great roleplay event.

Let us know what approach you take in the end and how it goes, I’m too trying to balance some of the psychic powers in the system.

Deathwatch psy rules are not my forte but is it not the case that for each sustained power your powers get weaker?
Did you take that into account?

Then there are certain dangers in pushing psionics. There is another way to keep the librarian from doing it too often.
More so if there are regions where the barrier between realworld and warpspace is thin.

Yeah, Perils of the Warp is the one and only true counter-balance to psy. You are encouraged to not fudge the outcome to be soft on your players there. Let chips fall where they may. And remember that Fate can't be spend on the rolls on the Psychic Phenomena/Perils of the Warp table.

We played Shadow of Madness on Saturday. Our Dark Angel librarian did succumb to it, he "saw" Fallen moving to attack them, including one he was on the hunt for and decided to Smite them, Pushed. Guess what happened? Perils of the Warp, Nurgle Daemon Prince. They could only stop the best because we were playing with 6 Marines, a lot of fate got burned (one new character, first session was quickly dropped to 0 Fate) and bad rolling of dice on my part. Light Attacks with WS 75 by the daemon - rolls: 98, 95, 93. That's luck.

The librarian did manage to banish the daemon with his force sword though. But again he had to Push it. Result? Perils of the Warp, 83 - the banished daemon would have sucked him into the warp with him and conducted vile experiments. So the DA Librarian also burned a Fate point to avert that fate.

The only safe way of casting is Unfettered. Fettered is pretty safe once you can also re-roll Psychic Phenomena rolls. Otherwise beware, Pushing is never really safe and it shouldn't be. If you PCs are high rank enough, substitute Daemon Price of X with Greater Daemon of X. Keeps everyone on their toes.

Alex

As Umbranus and ak-73 stated:

Multiple Sustained Powers, while awesome and doable, does have a drawback.

Use these rules when found. But warn the PC first. "Hey, I was doing some reading, because what you're doing is really quite impressive, and thought I should just read how awesome it was. But, if you look here on page...".

Should sting less and it'll be an honest mistake that way.

Of course, you do have to find the page reference, and I cannot do that for you as I am at work and do not have my book on me atm.

AlphariusOmegon7 said:

I doubt an untouchable would be much of an issue for a high level librarian. iirc they only reduce psy rating by 5. If you have more PR than that you can still manifest powers, and the Wolf Spirits would still do decent damage.

@OP, Fury of the Wolf Spirits costs a full action to use, so your psyker won't be able to sustain any powers and summon the wolves afterwards. He could summon the wolves first, then start using other powers, but there is no point. All Space Wolves powers use a full action, so he has to choose between the wolves and a new power, and the most powerful codex powers cost a full action as well.

Is sustaining a psychic power also considered use of psychic ability? As the rulebook states that there can be no more than one type of action per round. If so, then he can't use other psychic abilities. If not he can still use another half action like smite.

Something a little off track, if you have an ultramarines libby, get him to hit the enemies with war cry first, then use your wolves. Since war cry makes enemies unable to use reactions, the wolves cannot be dodged or parried. Hehe.

Doubt it, since the book explicitly states that you can sustain as many powers as many powers as you want as long as your PR doesn't drop to 0, among other requirements.

Okay, hate to thread necro but these wolves are becoming a real pain in the butt for me. It's unrealistic to expect enemies know the Kill-Team is coming, so it's a rare enemy who can believably have taken steps to remove the wolves from play. In addition, there's only so many ways I can reasonably prepare an enemy for them - hexagrammic wards, Untouchables, and Psychic Hoods only go so far. I've had considerable success on my current mission by occasionally plunging the Kill-Team into the Warp (which, perhaps needless to say, makes Psychic Powers INCREDIBLY risky to use), but at the end of the mission that trick won't be available. So here's the facts:

• My Librarian typically Pushes with the Wolves, giving them an effective Psy Rating of 11. Therefore, Freki does 11d10 damage and Geri does 11d5 Pen: 33.
• These attacks automatically hit unless Dodged, Parried, or stopped with a Force Field.
• The Wolves themselves cannot be damaged by normal attacks nor grappled. They are not hindered by any kind of terrain.
• The Wolves can instantly move anywhere within the 55 meter radius of the power's range, as determined by the Librarian's PR (5 meters x PR).
• Per the rules for Psychic Powers used against Hordes, each Wolf inflicts 11 points of Magnitude damage against a Horde, which cannot be mitigated except through use of Force Fields (do Hordes benefit from Force Fields?).

Perils would naturally limit the situation, except that it's blasted difficult for my Librarian to inflict Perils on himself, even when Pushing. He has Warp Conduit, so he's at a -10 on all Psychic Phenomenon rolls (therefore needing to roll an 86 or higher to get Perils). In over two dozen sessions, I've only seen him roll Perils a couple of times, and it's mostly been the (relatively) harmless stuff. On the other hand, last night he was caught lying about his roll, so now all of his rolls are suspect. It bit him in the butt, though - when he rolled his Perils, he got an 83 - Lost to the Warp. Since he wouldn't have died, he wouldn't normally have been able to burn a Fate Point; however, I allowed him to burn TWO to survive (on account of the non-traditional use of Fate Point burning, and the cheating).

I guess I've been rambling on a bit, so here's what I'm asking. I'm either asking for new ways to limit/mitigate the Wolves, or if need be, suggestions on house rules to make them less overpowered. Quite frankly they're getting to the point where they're taking over the spotlight from the players, and I find that frustrating as a GM, and I know I'm not the only person at the table annoyed by it.

Nothing we can tell you will mitigate the cheating. Personally I remove cheaters from my group at the very least I wouldn't do him any favors and I certainly would pull ANY punches on the perils of the warp test if psychic powers are your problem. The perils are the only check to psychic powers, if you don't hold firm on them you have no one to blame but yourself. Also I would not count the wolves as seperate powers for purposes of hordes, Additionally why wouldn't they be hindered by terrain?

lurkeroutthere said:

Because they are spirits, incorporeal entities unrestricted by the physical plane around them, and striking with spiritual/psychic force. In a terrible comparison, it's sort of why C'Tans are unrestricted by terrain; they pass right through anything they don't deign to touch or obliterate.

I guess I'd have to ask who are their enemies? What foes are facing down the Wolves? If you had some Tzeentch Sorcerer as your enemy, they have ridiculous Warp mastery, compared to many others, AND fluff-based history with Russ and his Marines. Perhaps the Tzeentchian Sorcerer has a talisman that shields him from the spirit powers of Fenris, or hell, could turn it against him. Let him feel his own attack, maybe at half-strength, so that he doesn't die outright. Other Chaos servants, again are Chaos servants; the Warp is their medium, the plaything of their Masters, and one can never be sure what they will invoke, one fight to the next. maybe give them an ability to project false images, and the Wolves can waste time attacking nothing, if the Rune Priest can't discern the difference. If they are fighting some Xenos heretics, you could easily flub that some minor xenos relics are repelling the wolves, when needed; say the heretics have some wraithbone things, and they are inexplicably able to repel the wolves, or block their attacks. If it's Nids, their Shadow in the Warp might disrupt the psychic manifestations, while Necrons working in concert could "drain" it at activation, using their Null zones (sort of from Apocalypse, but Necrons are reliable for anti-psyker stuff). He could have a vision from Russ, praising his accomplishments, but chastizing him for overusing his gift in battle; he should gallantly fight his own fights; the Space Wolves way. At the lamest, you might deem that these two spirits, named as they are, are truly unique beings, meaning there are only the two of them, anywhere. In that case, you might roll percentile dice when he uses this power, and see if someone else of the Wolves is using it elsewhere, and sustaining it. The spirits won't leave them, to come to his aide, or they might leave him, to go to another's, depending on how you rule.

Otherwise, this seems like a very nice power that they wrote up maybe just a bit too well. Sort of like when a Zoanthrope Push uses Warp Blast or Warp Lance, and will definitely nuke a tank with it, and all the guys in it., if not the building behind it.

PrinceOfMadness said:

1. You could rule that the power does mag dmage 11 total. Based on the wording on page 260 it's not unreasonable. Please also note that even at 22 the power is not much more powerful than a PR 11 smite or avenger (11+d10). How much damage do your other PCs do against hordes? 22 shouldn't be too dramatic in comparison?

2. Against individual enemies I will also need to understand your parties capabilities. Because against 10 Tyranid Warriors, the spell won't be saving your Libby's rear end. It's not enough to one-shot a Warrior and they can parry. Mutliple Elites and large horde might work against the shadow.

3. Didn't have Achiles Assault have rules for Psykers under the Shadow of the Warp of a nid world invasion? I believe this might be the answer then: assign the Kill-Team to the Orpheus Salient and have them repeatedly operate on the Hive Fleet's shadow.

Make sure you don't frustrate your Rune Priest too much though; it's difficult to take away a toy someone else has become accustomed to.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Except that he can Smite in addition to Sustaining the Wolves, for a total of 43 potential Magnitude damage. The problem with making the Wolves do 11 Magnitude damage total is that each Wolf can attack different targets. I guess I could rule that they only do 5 or 6 Magnitude damage apiece. While a Librarian SHOULD be effective against Hordes, that pretty well outshines any of my other group members (Tactical Marine can generate 32 Magnitude damage with a Bolter through Bolter Drill, Hellfire Rounds, and Storm of Iron, whereas the Assault Marine can generate between 4 and 40 Magnitude on a charge (Degrees of Success divided by two, plus 3d10 from Wrathful Descent/Death From Above - and he has insanely high Weapon Skill).

ak-73 said:

The party is, as a whole, incredibly lethal. They've all just reached Rank 6 and are outfitted with a mix of Artificer and Terminator Armour (some shenanigans with not understanding how Renown worked early on, so they're all Hero). Our old DM also allowed for 3d10 instead of 2d10 to be rolled for starting Characteristics, so they're even more powerful than a normal Marine. I've been trying to compensate for that by boosting enemy stats to match, but it hasn't been terribly effective. They're all carrying Force Fields (two have Iron Halos, one has a Rosarius, and the other two have Storm Shields).

Our Assault Marine has only rarely been hit in melee (aforementioned ridiculous Weapon Skill plus shenanigans with Tactical Spacing to share Reactions) and can do 30 to 40 damage a hit with his Lightning Claws. He naturally has four attacks. I've had some recent success with using Hordes against him, which obviously cannot be Parried or Dodged. The Tactical Marine has set himself up as a sniper and carries both a Stalker Boltgun and a Bolter. I've already mentioned my issues with the Space Wolf, with the addition that any time I bring in a lot of heavy weapons he brings up Force Dome, sustained with a PR of 11. (Yes, I realize that gets rid of the Wolves. It's unrealistic, however, to expect that every single enemy they fight brings heavy weapons to the table - and a Force Dome providing 22 AP against ranged attacks is still a headache as a GM.) My other two players aren't as bad for me - Black Templar Apothecary who's respectable in melee and carries a Hand Flamer for Hordes, and a Dark Angels Librarian who generally fills a support role (Possibility Shield and Force Barrier on himself - NOT Pushing for an effective sustained PR of 5.) I believe that covers the essential points of my Kill-Team.

ak-73 said:

I haven't read that far into the Achilus Assault yet. Currently they're fighting the forces of Chaos aboard the Space Hulk, looking to reclaim a Dark Angels Chapter Relic. The ship's mostly controlled by Death Guard and various Nurgle-aligned entities, but as it's a Space Hulk I've got considerable freedom to slip in other encounters. For the next big mission I was considering setting the Kill-Team in the middle of a war on multiple fronts, something with Tau, Tyranids, and Imperials, and possibly Orks/miscellaneous as well. So I've got lots of room to work with as far as putting some stopping power on the table.

lurkeroutthere said:

Where did I say I was pulling punches with Perils of the Warp? I remember saying that I was having a hard time getting the Librarian to generate Perils, on account of Warp Conduit, and I recall saying that I allowed him to BURN TWO FATE POINTS to avoid being yanked into the Warp by a Daemon. I keep the Perils of the Warp page bookmarked, eagerly waiting for him to generate those Perils, and I'm often left disappointed.

PrinceOfMadness said:

In my mind allowing him to burn two fate points to avoid being puled into the warp is pulling punches especially as that is one of the most dire non immediately fatal perils there markign the character going forward. I don't feel it's accurate to say your allowing him to pull punches and then allowing him to burn any amount of fate points to avoid his just rewards when they finally do come up especially allowing him to neatly side step the ones that actually have real future consequences for his character for a measly 2 fate points. I mean you rail that the system seems to have no teeth and then hand the palyer the pliers when they do face it. You may of course disagree.

As I said other then that I would have them follow the rules for using psychic powers on hordes not treat them as individual attacks, I'd have to re-read the rules on that.

PrinceOfMadness said:

Ah yeah, he can. I wouldn't probably allow it and enforce a 40K-style "one psychic shooting attack only" rule. You can't do it in 40, why should you be able to in DW?

PrinceOfMadness said:

A big flaw of DW's game design is that the setting doesn't really deal well with 4 or more high rank Astartes. It's like fielding 4 Movie Marine Space Marine captains, they just obliterate much of what comes in sight - as it comes into view. There's no good solution to it right now other than

a) high PC mortality or infrequent PC retirement (tour of duty ends) and the replacements starting at low ranks, leading to a mix of ranks. That is certainly not for every group.

b) being incredibly stingy with req points. It's not going to help much due to Signature Wargear but still.

PrinceOfMadness said:

Maybe your players want to retire their characters and start from scratch? I'd not make the suggestion but before the next session I would simply email my players and tell them that I think inner party balance is broken. Let them come up with a solution.

PrinceOfMadness said:

When I was running Oblivion's edge I ruled that the Psy Level shifted one level to the bottom on Avalos (Unfettered wouldn't work, Fettered would have the PR of Unfettered and Pushed would be Fettered). Now that was a planet under siege. On the Hive Ship I ruled that psy was impossible due to Shadow of the Warp.

Pretty harsh but nid invasions are no picnic.

Alex

Well, perhaps a lot of past success was down to good old fashioned cheating.

Watch him like a hawk, and see how effective he remains. Make him sit where you can see his dice.

A few other things:

Demons and some other effects provide nearby characters with a WP penalty. That should blunt him a little.

Collars of Khorne. There's no reason you can't put them on bloodthirsters, to my mind! Have fun saying 'no effect' at any psychic ability thrown at them!

Think of other environmental effects that will blunt the powers, rather than going for amazingly niche things like Hexogramic wards. Stopping him seeing his targets, for example.

The rules say they are spirit creatures. So... what if an area is haunted by a dozen bear spirits, or a bunch of spectres, or other 'spirit' foes. Just because the rules say you can't target them, you don't have to blindly follow that. I'd personally have them explore some haunted ruins, and have something 'spiritually' kick the CRAP out of the wolves, and then move on to the party. Then when they start to complain that they have no way of hurting the teleporting 'spirit giant crocadiles' which do insane damage, you can either steep your fingers and say 'sucks, doesn't it', or let them suggest ways that it's 'fair' to hurt such creatures. You can then use all of the player-suggested ways to target the spirit wolves at a later date, and there's not much they can complain about!

ak-73 said:

There's a lot to be said for this, in some ways. If the characters were generated under a generous GM, it's unfair to bear that cross if it's too heavy.

It's a low blow, but you can also point out that you feel the team's achievements are somewhat in tatters to your mind; since so much of it was built upon an unbalanced character who has been cheating. It depends on your view on cheating, though; some would consider that to be a bit too harsh!

Siranui said:

I second Siranui. If the existing characters were created under the previous GM who was too generous, then you shouldn't be made to pick up the pieces. You're not Atlas and you don't hold the world on your shoulder.

Nerfing the players at this point will have them screaming murder. IMO I suggest a reset button push. It may not be fair to you to continue the existing campaign.

What PrinceofMadness neglects to mention is that he was one of the players that convinced me to let them roll 3d10 instead of 2d10 for stats. So don't feel too sorry for him about that. Yes it was a mistake that he and I have to deal with but it really isn't that big of a deal since it averages out to about 5 more points in each stat. Once these characters retire we will be going back to original rules for character creation.

Plus, we all had no idea what we were doing so mistakes were made

Please let me re-quote myself in full:

"Maybe your players want to retire their characters and start from scratch? I'd not make the suggestion but before the next session I would simply email my players and tell them that I think inner party balance is broken. Let them come up with a solution. "

It's not fair for a GM to downgrade PCs on his own or insist on new PCs (unless forced - with his back to the wall and out of ammo). What is fair on the GMs behalf is to say though: "Party balance is broken. This, this and this is a problem for me and I think it detracts from overall fun. Please come up with suggestions on how to fix it."

There's no use in finger pointing and no 3d10 for stats isn't OP and not the source of problems. The problem is that it's an additional slight bonus on top of the built-in heap of stacking bonuses you get in DW.

Alex