Why doesn't the apothecary start with medicine, doesn't it need it to make use of the herbs and medicines rules? It would seem that the career doesn't encompass the traits adequate for all the uses of the medicine skill so perhaps a new advanced skill is in order: Herbalism. Or, perhaps the apothecary can be allowed to use folklore (or nature lore) in place of medicine when using herbs and such. Or, perhaps I've just missed something. Any thoughts? Thanks.

Pharmacists and Physicians are two very different careers Surgery is not really the skill of an herb preparer and pedler.

It wouldn't break the game to give them that, but it wouldn't give them anything to strive towards (i.e. the physician advanced career).

jh

Just to back up the same point really - people in modern day pharmacies tend to follow the prescriptions of doctors rather than diagnose and treat problems themselves.

The apothecary career represents someone who tends to know how to follow a recipie to make a palliative or poultice or whatever, whilst the medicine skill represents actually knowing a bit about human biology and the diagnosis and treament of ailments.

And they are rather different skill sets.

I think I agree that's why I said they probably don't deserve to have the medicine skill itself except for the fact that the herb and medicine rules in the GM's Guide indicates that remedies require the medicine skill to make and since an apothecary makes medicine it seems counter-intuitive for them not to be able to use those herb and medicine rules. Are you saying that the apothecary should simply be able to make those medicines as part of their career, no roll needed? Sorry, I guess I'm still lost.

The Errata you discovered is noted on page 20 of Liber Infectus ("hard medicine check"). It was evidently reproduced in the GMs guide (which page?).

Yea, one shouldnt requre surgical skill to prepare herbs. Ignore the medicine req. imho and it should read either:

Tradecraft: Prepare Herbs/Medicines

or

Nature Lore: By apothecary (only), can prepare herbs/medicines.

The "Medicine" skill has nothing inherently to do with preparing herbs whatsoever because it is a surgical and treatment skill, not a preparation skill.

I just added it to my house rulebook.

Good going on the Errata find!

jh

Yeah, the "Herbs & Medicines" rules are reproduced on page 63 of the Game Master's Guide and they clearly state it most often takes a hard medicine check to turn herbs into effective medicines. Thanks for the confirmation of the error, I was beginning to think I was losing it. : ) Just to let you know I'm currently thinking in terms of adding a new career or two (the herbalist and healer). The apothecary would be the more urban shopkeeper-buy herbs in the market type (human, high elf, halfling, dwarf) while the herbalist would be the rustic find herbs in the wild type (human, halfling, wood elf). The healer would be for those not wishng to take to more academic route of physician. Thanks again!

I don't quite understand where the error is, or where it is fixed? There's nothing in the FAQ about it.

UniversalHead said:

The error is that "Medicine" is required to prepare herbs and medicines. The Apothecary is unable to prepare herbs and medicines b/c they don't have the "medicine" skill.

jh

I see, cheers.

(More words here because dumb FFG forum system considered the above message too short to publish. Doh.)

I would agree that people need to be able to prepare remedies without the medicine skill. I would consider allowing players to opt to use Pharmacy Specialisation (First Aid/Nature Law/Trade Skill) instead of medicine.

During the renaissance the roles were very clearly devided and enforced through registration and record keeping. Phisicians diagnosed, theorized, prescribed, treated the inner body, Barber Surgens cut, and treated the outer body while Apothocaries sourced and created the prescription. All three careers may be involved in treating a patient without the Physician actually raising a blade or using a mortar while the others deferred to his instruction.

It's my understanding that the demarkation of profession was quite late. Imo WFRP3 apothecaries should diagnose and prescribe.

The skill of treating wounds, setting bones, amputation and basic techniques to reduce inflection risk (the big killer) is under ‘First Aid’, which is a basic skill – no problem there. However, the treatment of infections and diseases should not be the excusive providence of the ‘educated’ elite. The fact is that in ‘period’ doctors were more likely to kill their patients than the local apothecary or someone using folk medicine. But within the game we might reasonable decide that the two are roughly equal.

Imo a ‘folk’ Medicine skill needs to be attached to careers like apothecary. Physicians might guard their monopoly with Gold tier patients, but let the Barber Surgeons and Apothecaries alone to treat the masses.

From a brief search, it looks like strict regulation happened in the 19th century. Interestingly there are moves to reverse this and in the UK pharmacists are given proscribing right via additional training.

I would say it's just because it's the Old World and the high priced apothecary is selling you snake oil not good effective medicines that a knowledgeable woodsy type could make but end up getting burned at stake over.

That said, I've had an Apothecary player note that as an interesting tid bit too. One way of looking at it is that Medicine generally is a rare skill and basic careers giving it vanishingly few. Expect to pay the extra advance costs for it as it's so rare it's not really "part of a career" even when "you would expect it".

This does have a quasi-historical feel to it for European medical practice.

Rob

For the most part, apothecaries in the Old World make much more than medicines. In fact, I would suggest that the primary production of most apothecaries is not actual medicine. Not all apothecaries know how to make effective medicines if if they did attempt to make some. It takes a special skill (ie Medicine) for an apothecary to be able to make actual working healing draughts.

While I can see not requiring the Medicine skill for an apothecary to make various herb mixtures (perfumes, "love" potions, cleaning solutions, etc). To make an effective potion/balm for medicinal use, I am not adverse to requiring the Medicine skill. While the apothecary does not need to know surgery, there is a lot they need to know about the human body and its capabilities in order to get a correct potion/balm to actually heal someone.

To boil it down ... in my opinion if an apothecary wants to make a working medicine (that will actually heal someone's wounds, like a healing draught), they need the medicine skill. Otherwise, a tradecraft or Nature Lore should suffice to make "something". As a GM, depending on successes, I might allow the created potion/balm to heal a single Wound or so, as if a minor healing draught.

From ancient Greece, Rome, to modern day, the apothecary made medicines.

Let's think in at story level for a moment:

Customer walks into the apothecary shop:

Apothecary: What can I get for you sir?

Customer: My guts are all watery sir! I have terrible pains in my belly.

Apothecary: Sounds like you've a case of gutter worms. You're the third person in this morning with the same. I can recommend this purgative, a moderately strong brew particular good for worms. Drink plenty of good ale with it and you should flush them right out in a day or two. If you're not sorted then come back and we'll try something else.

Strictly speaking WFRP3 shouldn't allow this to have any game effect...

This whole discussion is moot if a GM just errata's that an Apothecary get's medicine skill in-career..but what fun would that be?

jh

p.s anyone want to wager a drink at Bugman's if this thread is ever read by staff and actually makes into the errata next year? How does that process work anyways? Do there need to be "so many calls" to customer service?

I thought Bugman's was burned down.

Fresnel said:

Keep in mind in the Warhammer world, there are also Herbalists and actual Doctors, as well as Barber-surgeons too.

Making working medicines is not a trivial skill, IMO. Notice in your example, the apothecary is *not* making a medicine. He is making a purgative. It is not healing Wounds, or even curing anything. All it is doing is making the customer vomit (or otherwise expel).

That, in my mind, is the distinction.

IMO, if an apothecary wants to manufacture specialized tonics/potions that actually CURE/HEAL by direct virtue of the tonic/potion (such as a healing draught, or one that removes a disease card, etc) then Medicine is required, which skill the apothecary will need to purchase as it isn't necessarily something every apothecary will/should know. An apothecary can make and distribute a large variety of potions/tonics/balms that assist in dealing with symptoms, or like your mentioned purgative, that might assist in recovering/curing the ailment, all without needing the Medicine skill.

dvang said:

Purgatives were and still are a medicine. Even modern drugs merely assist in the body's ability to recovery. In the above example the purgative acts to either kill the intestinal parasite or inhibit its’ ability to remain attached to the intestinal tract – whilst it also acts to stimulate bowel movement. This is actually the Real World™ mechanics of a number of such treatments, both folk and modern.

What you are describing is a supernatural effect. Things that CURE and HEAL in the sense you seem to imply are the providence of the Alchemist.
The Trade Skill (Apothecary) is the skill needed to manufacture effective mundane medicines.

Medicines should be part of the toolkit physicians need to practice. However, they may or may not have the skill to make these medicines – if they are difficult to make. In a less abstract system the GM might rule that treating a particular disease requires a particular medicine. The Medicine skill what allows the physician to diagnose and determine the correct medicine. The physician would then need to seek it out.

However WFRP3 doesn’t do this level of fuss…

I just had an apothecary join the party. My solution was to just house-rule that the apothecary career card adds that they can use Nature Lore instead of Medicine to mix remedies.

I think that's a more sensible solution as "medicine' was defined in the skills as being more about procedures and surgery. Tradecraft might also be a relevant skill. Now that I look at it, the Apothecary's skills are kind of odd: Folklore, First Aid, Intuition, Nature Lore, Observation

In comparison of the 4 relevant skills:

Medicine (Int) Advanced skill. The knowledge of the mortal body and how to care for it when seriously injured. This skill takes healing and treatment beyond the scope of First Aid, and can produce more dramatic results. Also covers rudiments of surgery, amputations, cauterisation, treating poisons and disease, suturing and long-term medical care. Treating injured characters is covered in detail on page 88. Specialisation options: critical wounds, poison, disease, long-term care, surgery

Nature Lore (Int) Basic skill. Wilderness savvy and the ability to withstand the rigours of nature and interpret its subtle clues. This skill also covers subsisting in the wild. It includes such activities as fishing, locating potable water, finding edible food, or identifying animal tracks. This skill also covers familiarity with plants, animals, weather patterns, and life outside the civilised areas. Specialisation options: locate shelter, locate food, locate water, identify animal, identify plant

First Aid (Int) Basic skill. Covers the basics in rendering care, tending to injury, splinting, and helping someone survive until better care is available, as well as evaluating the severity of wounds or trying to identify infections or sources of injuries. The more seriously injured the target is, the more challenging it is to treat them. Treating injured characters is covered in detail on page 88. Specialisation options: combat surgery, long term care, tending critical wounds, tending normal wounds

Tradecraft (Varies) Advanced skill. Unlike most skills that are fairly narrow in focus or apply to a specific set of related aptitudes,
Tradecraft is a collection of skills related to professional dedication and learning of an applied trade. General training covers evaluation
and understanding of the basics of trade as a business and component of Empire life. Specialisation introduces focus on one
particular type of trade or livelihood. Tradecraft covers both hands-on, practical applications of trades and handicrafts and the commerce and business acumen necessary to earn a living. The characteristic used depends on the demands of the trade, as determined by the GM. Specialisation options: smithing, carpentry, jewellery making, brewing, engineering, performance

Very interesting thread. It just peaked my interest since an apothocary just joined our group (as Doc said).

It is my understanding that the Apothocary knows how to very effectivly utilize the healing tools available to them to enhance the healing process. These tools being herbs, poltuces, balms, draughts, etc. This should not require a medicine skill nor does it really have anythign to do with medicine. The apothacary tends to wounds with the aid of his or her craft.

This seems to be backed up by the character ability card in which you get to add an additional white die when using a draught on yourself or administoring it to another.

I'd imagine an apothocary would be quite familiar with the requirements to create many of the 'tools of the trade' though they may not be a specialist in making them. It seems reasonable that an apothacary can attempt to create potions and poltuces, estpecially with the aid of Nature Lore which seems to be the closest skill to 'herbalism".

Gitz

How about this for house rules:

Tradecraft - Apothecary (Advanced Skill): The skill and knowledge to manufacture medicines as well as knowing how to diagnose conditions they might benefit. Allows the character to aid in the recovery of Diseases in the same way as the Medicine skill. Requires access to a supply of medicines.

This leaves the Medicine skill as superior (in PC terms) - as it can benefit both Disease and Wound recovery. Apothecaries cannot treat wounds, but they can make medicines.

The thing is, there is already a precedent to use Nature Lore for crafting remedies, because some remedies can already be crafted by Nature Lore. Expanding it out to all remedies seems like the path of least resistance.

I say just let it be what the PC wants it to be. Its their character, and they know what their character knows how to do. Its not game breaking one way or another anyway. If we have a PC who wants to heal because thats what girls like to do, then hell, i'll help make it happen. =)

Gitz