from france

Juste a simple question, well maybe not. if we compare to the collective faith of mankind in the emperor witch is by large one of the most numerous species in the galaxy. to the believers in chaos? i know that a lot of humans and some whole species convert to chaos. but if faith fashion the warp which one of this two faith has most weigth and potential?

According to the fluff, the Imperium of Mankind is the strongest force. That's probably the reason why everyone is trying to get rid of it. From the Orks to the Tau, Chaos, Tyranids etc. All of these races have the Imperium of Mankind as their main enemy. Yet none of them can get a decisive victory over the Imperials, go figure!!

It's bit tricky.

Khorne loves loyalist SM because they are spilling a lot of blood, and for Khorne it doesn't matter from whom blood flows until it flows. Even thought most humans doesn't pray to unholy 4 their lives are one big prayer to them. When imperial scholar look for knowledge in old archive how to fight chaos, Tzeentch smiles. When artist is making great sculpture in the name of Emperor, Slaanesh looks favorably to it. When imperial medic helps wounded soldiers, Nurgle is by his side. IG, SM, Sisters of the Battle, Imperial Navy fight in the name of Emperor but their shulls and skulls of their enemies go to skull trone of Khorne. Becouse of this Chaos is so dangerous.

Seemingly devoted and purehearted members of the Imperium can unwittingly bolster the forces of Chaos and their followers. This isn't to say that every human that has sex channels power to Slaanesh, or that every battle the Imperial Guard engages in brings a Bloodthirster that much closer to manifestation.

But the noble whose ennui drives him to experiment with thoroughly heinous sexual practices, or the Lord-General who refuses to admit defeat and sends hundreds of thousands of Guardsmen to their doom on a daily basis: these are the people that can subvert the faith of the Imperium and bring power to the dark gods, without their realizing it.

This is purely my interpretation - no doubt others would argue that even seemingly innocuous acts can add to the collective power of the dark gods, and I think that is a perfectly valid view. Humanity struggling with its inner demons is a huge part of Warhammer 40K, and the forces of Chaos are both figurative and literal manifestations of these inner demons. Humanity slowly sliding into Chaos by simply being human is a delicious irony, and a theme that would no doubt be a hit at many game tables.

The way I see it, Chaos can not be truely defeated in this era. The Emperor was making a go of it by putting down faith and trying to put mankind on a rightious path, thats why they needed the specatular train wreck of the Horus Heresy to demonstrate thier power and inspire worship in the future. I see it as an almost unstoppable force, to even fight it invites corruption even as you oppose it. No matter how many defeats it suffers it still surges back strong as ever. I also think that it feeds on the Imperium of Man, and so it will not make a true play to destroy the Imperium.

I don't remember the source, but the warp is altered by emotions not only opnely felt, but also by subconscious feelings. Which means that even if the emotions get suppressed or prepressed by extrankl intervention, they leak over the warp, feeding some power to the Dark Gods. And with a monolithic, conformist and repressive society like the Imperium, there's an awfull lot of emotions to leak into the warp. Even if a mortal is only a tiny drop of power, with a population umbering in the trillions, it adds up to quite a lot.

An other side of the coin would be the orks : while they're thoroughly brutal, they have very little in the way of inner doubts, subconscious or repressed urges. They're about as straigth-in-your-face open as can be done. Which makes them about immune to Chao's siren's songs.

Well, the setting (40k in general) states that mankind is fighting a loosing battle so I think it is stronger.
The real trouble in my eyes is the great devourer.

I agree with Santiago in that the Tyranids are a bigger problem for Chaos than the Imperium, same with the Necrons. The Imperium is stagnant and not going to change itself anytime soon or suddenly go over on the offensive. With the Tyranids and Necrons however you have a very real threat to Chaos that I think will be needed to be adressed sooner or later.

The Tyranid and Necron will destroy chaos by destroying sentient life...

I try to look on it with a positive outlook - Chaos will overcome them.

Santiago said:

What an interesting thing to say! I hope you don't mind if I steal this, do you?

I read somewhere that Chaos is the pool of all negative thoughts of all sentient beings....not that crazy..

In a lot of the Fantasy fluff, and some of the 40k fluff, they talk about there being many different Chaos powers. The four listed are the most powerful because their spheres of influence are so broad.

There is a chaos god of bunnies and flowers, he just gets kicked around a lot.

I also encourage people to read the Horus Heresy books if you get a chance. A lot of the info there is great to help flesh out games, but I thought it was most interesting that the Emperor tried really hard to make himself /not/ a religious icon. It just spiraled out of control once he was interred in the Golden Throne.

Santiago said:

The Imperium is fighting a loosing battle against many enemies, not just Chaos, so I don't think it's accurate to say that Chaos is stronger. Abbadon led thirteen crusades against the Imperium, all but one of which were beaten back; it could be argued that it was at least partly due to the massive losses from the Tyranids late in the 41st Millimun that allowed the 13th Black Crusade to succeed...

Adeptus-B said:

It's a common mistake to think that Abaddons black crusades were failed attempts at conquering the imperium. Each and everyone had a specific goal that was acchieved, and everyone was invaluable in gaining vital information for the next crusade. Abaddon knows he can't just sail to terra and end the Imperium in one fell blow. He knows that the beast (imperium) must die by a thousand tiny cuts.

You could, in fact, argue that each and every one of the thirteen black crusades was a success.

Jackal_Strain said:

Here here! That's my view of it too. If people actually read into the histories and reasons for each of the Black Crusades, they'd know that the vast majority of the objectives Abaddon had were completed, and he's actually been a lot more successful than people usually think.

I don't think one can measure how strong chaos is or isn't. It's obviously an extremely powerful force, capable of corrupting nigh everyone. Most likely every human alive feels it's alluring pull to some degree or another. But as for military? I don't think Chaos will win due to black crusades or even chaos space marines but the increasing growth of cultists festering at the roots of the imperium, killing it from the inside.

In terms of raw military might the singel strongest faction is the imperium of man, orks are stronger but splintered and fight eachother as much as anyone else and the same can be said for alot of other factions.

I'd say the "strenght" of Chaos isn't really comparable to the other powers, it's not even measurable by the same standards. Chaos is afterall powered by just that: chaos. It needs war to thrive,which is why invasions by Chaos forces are always at their strongest at the early stages when bloodshed, fear, hatred and a wide array of other related things are abundant. Then, the more Chaos conquers, the weaker it gets simply because of the lack of resistance (read: fuel). Chaos as a power can not be defeated, but neither can it win: the moment Chaos conquers/destroys everything, it will be out of fuel and pretty much implode. Chaotic power at its best, constantly seeking to destroy what's keeping it alive.

I'm pretty sure I've read/heard the theory somewhere else, so not meaning to steal it or anything. It just happens to make a lot of sense and as such I'm leaning towards this being the case.

I wonder why noone has yet given the obvious answer: No, Chaos is not stronger. It's quicker, easier, more seductive!