This is not strictly a rules question, but rather a question as to the reasons certain rules are the way they are, which is why I post it here.

Looking over the weapon talents, there are:

Basic Weapon Training:
Bolt, Las, Launcher, Melta, Plasma, SP, Primitive, Universal.
Universal encompasses Bolt, Las, Launcher, Melta, Plasma, and SP.

Pistol Weapon Training:
Bolt, Las, Launcher, Melta, Plasma, SP, Primitive, Universal.
Universal encompasses Bolt, Las, Launcher, Melta, Plasma, and SP.

Heavy Weapon Training:
Bolt, Flame, Las, Launcher, Melta, Plasma, SP, Primitive.
Note that there is no Universal and that Flame is separate just like all the others.

Melee Weapon Training:
Chain, Shock, Power, Primitive, Universal.
Universal encompasses Chain, Shock, and Power.

Flame Weapon Training:
Universal.
Flame Weapon Training only has Universal , which allows you to use all non-exotic weapons with the Flame special quality.

This all feels very inconsistent to me. It feels very messy, when I look at the advancement schemes and what the different careers start with. So, if I start with Melee Weapon Training ( Universal ) , I can use a Power Sword , but not a regular Sword , because it doesn't encompass Primitive ? I can use a Shock Gauntlet , but not a Gauntlet ? Why is Flame Weapon Training lumped along with the other Weapon Training talents, why is it following the same naming convention, and why is it even following the talent group rules, if it only have one group - Universal ?

It feels to me like the Universal Sub-Category for Talent Groups was invented to cut down on bookkeeping or, but was never really "cleaned up" for lack of a better word.

And why is Flame a sub-category for Heavy Weapon Training , but not for Pistol or Basic Weapon Training ? Especially in the context of Flame Weapon Training being all-inclusive in terms of flame weapons, and Universal specifically not including that same Flame sub-category. What is the logic for almost everyone starting with the ability to use Plasma weapons or Meltas - either Basic, or Pistol, or both - but absolutely not Flame, Basic or Pistol?

I see no logic in any of this and frankly, I'm getting the itch to simply can the Universal sub-category entirely, renaming Flame Weapon Training to.. anything other than a base Weapon Training talent, really - and then re-assign Pistol Weapon Training s, Basic Weapon Training s, and Melee Weapon Training s - with separate sub-categories - to careers and ranks independently.

Edit: As a side-question, why are Exotic Weapons even classified as being Pistol, Basic, Melee and so on? Seeing as how Exotic Weapons always require a specific Exotic Weapon Training and have no general sub-categories, you'd think that they'd all be Class: Exotic - whether they are Pistols, Basic, Melee or Heavy or whatever has no bearing; but the fact that they are Exotic does.

In my games I allow players to use Melee Weapon Training (Universal) for Primitive Melee weapons as well. If somehow the player ended up with Melee Weapon Traininng (Primitive) and the Career allow him to start with Universal as well, I just transform Primitive into a Talented Talent.

About Flamers, I agree that Heavy Weapon Training (Flaimers) is stupid. If some Career has it it should be changed to Flame Weapon Training, IMHO.

Another weird thing is that the Drusian Adherent has both Basic Weapon Training (Flamers) and Heavy Weapon (Flamer), which is stupid. I just changed both so he has Flame Weapon Training.

To be quite honest, i find the entire weapon talent system retarded. If you know how to fire a SP pistol then honestly, how much harder is it to fire a las pistol? The rules don't say you don't know how to change ammo on it, you can do that just fine without the proper talent. It says you get a -20 to fire a weapon without the talent ... aiming and shooting is pretty much the same with a las as it is with a SP. If anything it'd be easier with a las as you shouldn't get the recoil.

There's many like-minded problems: you can use a power sword with the proper talent but not primitive. Imo: primitive should be the starting category and a prerequisite for power. And they shouldn't be that darned costly. Many weapon talents are 500 xp when you honestly don't need to learn that much extra over the ones you got already (such as with flamer and heavy flamer).

So yah, i agree with you.

Badlapje said:

That's why everyone save Orks (I don't remember about Kroots) get Pistol/Basic Weapon Training (Universal) on their advances. Having something like Pistol Weapon Training (SP) is almost for NPCs.

On this regard I think Rogue Trader has done a better job than Dark Heresy, where you don't have the Universal subtype.

I generally agree with the above. Some changes to the way the talents are treated helps immensely -- adding Primitive weapons to Melee Universal, and removing the classes of Flame Weapon training.

As for classes of Exotic weapons, those do have an impact with other rules, which is why they matter; exotic pistols can still be used in melee, for example, and exotic heavy weapons still need to be braced or a PC having Bulging Biceps.

I have to admit, I'm wholly behind people wondering why MWT (Universal) doesn't encompass Primitive. Quite aside from anything else, no-one is going to jump straight from "never handled a sword" to "regularly training and working with a one-handed razor-sharp piece of electrified steel" (and if you switch off/run out of power for Power and Shock weapons you are carrying Primitive weapons that you have just been fighting with- all you need to do is stop fighting to 'touch' and start hitting people with it properly), you're always going to either do some preparatory training with a more basic weapon using the simple principles or use training versions of the same weapon to begin with. And those training weapons are likely to be reasonably effective Primitive weapons (either because the weapon they are subbing in for is simply the same thing switched on, or because you're training with an idiosyncratically shaped wooden club).

That said- the existence of different Flame Weapon Training talents is to make sure that Rogue Trader was backwards compatible with Dark Heresy. If you only use a system where stuff is part-and-parcel, then by all means merge all flame weapons under the same Talent, but if someone's going to be using characters originally built with another system (or someone wants to 'port their RT character back into DH), you may end up regretting it. Personally, I'm actually fine with the existence of characters that've learnt to fire diddy little hypergolic aerosol pistols as an incendiary aristocratic duelling weapon as well as having spent a tour in the PDF and manning a Salamander's mk. XLVI Vehicle-mounted Anti-Personnel/Defoliant Projector, but not having any idea how to properly handle a regular flamer.
Come to think of it, I've actually had a player in my group play that character. I can't remember what happened to him, but his flame-pistol duelling concept stuck with me... and wiped out a carefully planned recurring rival NPC in one bout of single combat (well, cooking off the grenades the NPC was still carrying certainly helped).

From a realistic point of view, having specific weapon training talents makes sense. As anyone who trains in any armed fighting style will tell you, knowing how to fight with a rapier doesn't really help you fight with a katana, and may even be detrimental to your performance when trying to swing this Japanese sword. Now, imagine how much your training in any melee weapon can help you fight with a weapon that looks kinda similar, but is actually a sword-shaped chainsaw or generates a disintegrating field around the blade. Some techniques you may use with some of those weapons won't work too well with others, and some might be downright harmful to your performance. For example, looking at various cinematics depicting Astartes combat (Dawn of War series and the new Space Marine game mostly), fighters using chainsword tend to slow down their swing upon contact to let the chain gnaw at the enemy longer. Try the same with a normal sword or a power sword, and you're just losing momentum for no gain.

The same can be applied to ranged weapons - different ballistic qualities of different projectiles warrant different aiming habits and different sights. Most importantly, maintenance would be drastically different, and proper maintenance is an important part of handling any firearm.

The real question is, is this kind of realism necessary in the system. Personally, I'm not too fond of it.

Badlapje said:

Maese Mateo said:

See, while I don't agree with the merging of all these different talents and weapon trainings, that's really odd, and somewhat confirms to me that the Universal sub-category system is borked and it was never meant to be that way. In what way does it confirm it for me? Because according to the Talent list(s), there is no Flamer sub-category for Basic Weapon Training . At all.

Badlapje said:

Well, the system to me makes perfect sense. The way SP weapons handle, as opposed to how Las weapons handle, are significantly different. As you say, Las has no recoil (this is a source of contention, by the way). The ammunition is very different. With Las, you never need to compensate for most environmental effects. With SP you do. I imagine that field-stripping a Lasgun and maintaining it is wildly different to doing the same to any kind of SP-weapon.

And that's without even getting started on all the other weapons. Plasma, Launchers, Flamers; these all handle extremely different, use different ammunition, and so on and so on. A weapon talent covers everything you need to know to efficiently use each weapon type.

The difference between using a Flamer and a Heavy Flamer is as big as between using any pistol and a rifle, or a rifle and a launcher. The fact that there's a talent specifically tailored to let you use all Flame weapons equally, regardless of all other factors is just.. so extremely retarded to me.

And yes, obviously, using Power Swords without being able to use Swords is just mindbogglingly stupid. Contextually, I can see how this makes sorta sense, because a Bow works considerably differently to that of a Hellgun. Fair enough. But a Bow also works a hell of a lot differently than that of a Javelin, yet both would definitely qualify as primitive ranged weapons.

Everyone should start with Primitive Melee Weapons, if not primitive ranged weapons, and Primitive Melee Weapons should definitely be a prereq to use melee Chain, Shock or Power.

And of course, if I split up all the various weapon talents and redistribute them amongst careers and ranks, I'd have to lower the average cost for each talent considerably, because you're no longer suddenly unlocking half the weapons in the galaxy with each talent bought.

Edit: Hurrrrr, quotes are broken as usual. I hope it makes sense either way, because when I hit edit, everything looks like ass.

Morangias said:

Maese Mateo said:

Except that you can start with eg. Pistol Training (Las) due to the origin path and then due to your class not get PWT (Universal). They did a better job, but it still annoys me.

Fgdsfg said:

I agree that with a Las you'd likely not have to compensate for different environmental effects, but that really only factors in when you are shooting at longer ranges. Half of the time, people shoot from relatively up close and the environmental effects won't factor in. If you'd need talents to cater to that distinction then you'd need a talent like "Gravity Shooter, you have been trained to fire a weapon under all sorts of gravity. Be it low G like the moon or heavy G up to three times that of earth. You can comfortably hit your opponent in both those cases and anything in between".

And like i said: the talent just lets you fire it without a -20 penalty. Everything you said about maintaining it or swapping ammo or whatnot isn't covered by the weapon talent, but by trade armourer/technomat, tech use, or is just plain something everyone can do supposedly. At the same score: using armour also doesn't require talents while the effect of wearing hides is radically different from the effect of wearing power armour or storm trooper carapace when it comes to the way you dodge an incoming sword swing and such more. Suddenly we aren't worrying about talents to allow you to do that, so why do we do that when it comes to using swords/guns/hammers/... .

To impart realism you'd need a hundred and one different talents. A hammer doesn't swing like a sword does neither, a bow and a javelin are different, and so on and so forth.

Morangias said:

This.

I use this explanation why weapon talents are divided up in DH. RT characters get funky new 'universal' traits because they're supposed to be a whole new power level apart from RT. Probably also the reason why Primitive is not included in the Universal talent, modern soldiers also don't get training with muskets or longswords. If provided with a dire need to employ these weapons, I'm sure you would manage but you'd be no expert right from the get-go.
I do also agree that this level of realism isn't what the game needs, but I do like to the make the distinction. I'd love to see you try a standard disarming technique with a powerblade if you're only trained on normal weapons(primitive), you'll probably lop off your own fingers...

But then again, the Flame talent should just provide you use of all flamers(in RT!).

The only problem saying that modern soldiers in the 40k universe wouldn't have training in primitive melee weapons the mono-upgrade, which is the least expensive modern melee weapon available. It'd actually be more common to see swords, maces, axes, and similarly primitive melee weapons with either mono or the equivalent Impact damage version.

Objulen said:

I think what Rift meant was, just as modern soldiers aren't trained in medieval warfare, so do Rogue Traders and their elite cadres not bother with 40k's equivalents of medieval weaponry. Seriously, Chainswords are a dime a dozen when you have the kind of fortune RT's command, it makes sense that they don't care for universally inferior Primitive weapons in their usual training regime.

Except that with this logic, Universal shouldn't cover Las weaponry either. Mono weapons are modern weapons, and they still use the Primitive Melee group. Given that some careers start with primitive melee weapons -- like the Arch-Militant -- and that a mono-weapon, while under powered when compared to chain or power weapons, is still a modern 40K weapon. There's no reason why Universal Melee shouldn't cover primitive weapons, due to the mono-upgrade, anymore than Universal Pistols or Basic shouldn't cover Las or Stub weapons.

Nobody starts big, just want to point out.

I cannot imagine that in the process of learning weaponry, you start with a Powerblade. It makes no sense. Before you even use blunted steel sparring weapons, you learn how to fight with something soft enough to not break a bone. Before anyone claims "Grimdark! They wouldn't care about pain!" I'd like to point out healing time would be a factor, and believe you me getting cracked in the side of the head with an inch thick piece of flexible wood hurts . That, to me, would qualify to me as a primitive weapon, and you'd have to master that enough to at least not cut your own foot off before they would give you a power blade. Once you had that blade, you still wouldn't be using it activated in sparring, because of the danger the power field presents even to power armour.

Now, shock weaponry: having this be a separate talent to primitive is ridiculous. Shock weaponry is not hit to touch, because the electrical charge doesn't deal any damage, it provides the Shocking quality. That's why an Officer's Cutlass and a Sword deal exactly the same damage - the actual physical trauma is caused by a shock weapons impact. This does give me an interesting idea though, have Shocking weapons be able to make a touch attack instead of a regular one, which could grant a circumstantial bonus (I'll throw, say, +10, out there as a suggestion) since you don't have to get nearly the force behind the blow to get the desired effect as you would with a regular attack.

In my opinion a touc hattack would give no bonus : sure you don't need such a good contact to get the desired result, but it also implies tha tyou're actively avoiding to wound the target and rely on the shock effect. this should balance out.

What you could to to represent teh fact that near-misses can deliver the shock would be rate that if you miss by one DoS the shock still goes thorugh even if the main damage doesn't, or something on that line.