Every time me and my friends play aGotLCG, we prefer team play over melee. Even if there's only three of us, it's better to play 2v2(one person playing two people) than melee. Why? Because Melee is confusing. And not in any rules sense...

When you build your deck in Melee, you want specifically cards that help you and one other player. Take summoning season for instance or any of the honor guards. Are you defending a military challenge you cannot win? Hey! I've got an honor guard card. Allow me to relinquish control of them to you, in return for a favor. That's when the game gets confusing!! It's stupid that the game incentivizes counting favors (no, not the card called counting favors). How much is my honor guard worth to you? What will you do in return? When can I ask for my favor to be repaid? It's not rare for me to keep track of everyone and say "Everyone owes me a favor, except Andrew, who owes me two and has a peace treaty with me for two turns". At this rate, I think I need to start giving people favor chips.

You see, A Game of Thrones LCG is suppose to have a bit of favors and possibly backstabbing, but we play in a play group, as I'm sure many of you do. Sure, not fulfilling your side of a favor might work in a random player environment, but try doing it with your group of friends. If you lie, negotiations will deteriorate, with some people simply deciding not to trade at all, but surely, your lie will be remembered and as a result, the value of your trade goes down.

How do I play Melee? I don't. I'm sick of ganging up on the player with the most power and keeping track of favors that are appraised differently from player to player, and sick of building a deck that favors the favor to win. We play team play, 2 v 2, good versus evil. I'll play other games that have 1v1v1v1 because they don't nearly have as enough confusion as aGoT. Maybe I should ban favor cards.

How do you play Melee?

Favours don't really play into it all that much. Every move I make must benefit me, and since I can't count on a favour traded later, I rarely trade.

What you *do* do is minimize damage. Don't give the deck with no draw the 3 cards from "Counting Favors", don't chose the combo deck that needs a specific character for your "Summoning Season". Don't bother with "Honor Guard" - it'll just get sacked to claim. If someone is in a better position than you, make sure no one is so weak as to become an easy target for them. If you're in the best position... go ahead and smash.

If you need to convince people at the table to act in your best interests, do so by highlighting how it's in their best interests too "If you let him get an unopposed challenge against me, he'll be able to stand his character with support of harlaw and get an unopposed intrigue challenge against you too!"

The best melee games are when everyone is trying to win, and you know (roughly) what each person's deck can do.

Yeah screw the favors. I'll made a deal with someone, just so I can instantly screw them over. "Hey if you pick me for summoning season I'll pick you for counting favors." I let them pick me for Summoning Season and then I pick someone else for Counting Favors if I don't want the other guy to get three cards. You aren't bound by the agreements you make in the game. Therefore I just forget about them or don't honor them. Its kinda weird why anyone keeps making deals with me actually.

I punch the Greyjoy player in the neck when he gives me Wharf Rats. I then ignore the Martell player until he runs out of Red Vengeance or other annoying "lose challenge" cards.

I usually screw up with "Favors" in the game so I usually focus on things that slow down other players winning. If it means giving another player an Honor Guard when I'm supporting a player who's about to win so they have an easier time to attack/defend against them from winning? I'll do it. If I have to give another player the ability to stop someone from getting closer to a win I will.

It's interesting that you guys sidestep the favors issue.

What would you do in a melee match if everyone brought "favor" decks, and starting playing building season, summoning season, counting favors, condemned by the realm plot cards (killing your characters) on each other, but none for you? Every time you tried to challenge someone, someone else went ahead and played honor guard for them, since they needed to return the favor.

I blame the game, not the players.

hencook said:

You seem to treat a favors as a sort of solidified system, in which one is obliged to return a favor. This seems very odd to me. You try to make the play that's best for you. This may involve making a deal (and perhaps subsequent backstabbing), or simply being able to convince other players that a certain play is favorable for them (but it is mainly for you).

Staton said:

QFT

~Well I wouldn't break any agreement with YOU! *sharpens knife*

It isn't the game, it is your play group. Nothing wrong with the way you play, except you don't like it. If you don't like it then don't play that way. I am baffled by how you all seem to play in a style none of you apparently enjoy as if it were a requirement.

I choose who to give favors to based entirely on what their relative position is in the game and how far I think the favor is going to put them forward. I don't make deals that are disadvantageous to me. I also don't break my deals. When I threaten harm against someone if they allow a thing to happen I stand by that as much as I do my pledges not to attack someone. Why? Because one day I'll be at the big table at a tournament and my standing by my promises will have developed a sense of predictability, and I will be able to use that trust to win. Either by sticking true to it and someone supporting my bid for first place, or by betraying it and snatching the win. My friends all understand this.

How do I play?

Rarely, and for fun (hopefully with beers).

(sorry, had to! )

Penfold said:

Penfold said:

Yeah you got me on that one, Eddard! I guess I'll never win out against that Trust and Honor you've worked so hard to aquire! Well I guess I'll see ya around! Love, Cersei.

I don't play a lot of melee- don't have a very big play group, and can rarely get more than 3 round a table at once.

That said, I really don't see this as a a problem. Yeah, if there's LOTS of favours around and you consistently screw people over, then eventually you're going to find yourself being cut out of the deals, possibly to your disadvantage, but equally, I'm pretty sure that the guy who's keeping track of who owes him which favour is the one who's coming out worst - "ok, so i'll tell everyone you're Robert's true son, then you'll let me join the Night's Watch and carry on playing, yeah?"

rings said:

I've been waiting for that. Though I thought it would have been a simple-"I don't"

Staton said:

I'm clearly Doran. But sure, think that you can manipulate me and plot against me while remaining safe.

Well to be fair, Doran is really only beating Eddard in the I still have my Head department. His schemes so far haven't seemed to play out too well. Still, from my experience people don't tend to remember actions from past games. I mean if they did, I would never win a melee game.....ever.

hencook said:

Do all of your friends care more about punishing you for "breaking" favors than winning the game? At what point to they continue to punitively harm you when they're no longer including you in deals. I mean, in a 4 player game (team or not) if you don't play a reciprocal plot, and the other 3 players do, the 1st two might exchange favors, but is the 3rd going to give one of the two already getting a "double benefit" a 3rd bump rather than keeping you somewhat in the game... if only to help stave of a win by one of those 2 other players? Or are the 3 players acting in cahoots (3 Summoning seasons where they all act in a triangle to give each of them 2 characters) against you based on past (not this game) behavior? If they hold grudges like that, I think that's a player issue and not a game one.

I should add that most of us here play with expansions, and if you're playing straight out of the box, with unmodified decks then yeah, you might have an issue... but even then, if players are "having memory" between games, you can't put that on the game. Try getting some additional plots and removing those multiplayer-centric ones and the Honor Guards and see if things change. Or shift your plots around to put all of those reciprocal plots in the same deck, so only one player can make deals. If they constantly pair with one player, I'm sure the other two will be bound just as tightly as this first "team."

I find this intriguing and I look forward to further discussion.

Staton said:

Yeah, because Cersei is doing so well right now.

I don't know about your meta but mine has a long memory.

Hey as a staunch supporter of Team Patchface, I hate Cersei as much as the next guy! Also, I've only met two people who seem to hold grudges from game to game. Katie and Dobbler. I sleep with Katie, so she doesn't generally hold grudges against me. I just lose to Dobbler, but luckily hardly ever have to play Melee against him.

Maester_LUke said:

I only used the core set cards in my example because everybody already knows them. As you know, there's plenty of other cards outside of the core set that allow you to help people, and we use those too.

I'm glad that the outside world isn't doing the same as our group. The main problem is that we want to win, and therefore we will play lame (exchanging favors). If we have to play lame to win, then who wants to play anymore?

-Do all of your friends care more about punishing you for "breaking" favors than winning the game?
There is usually no actual punishment in the terms of "ok lets all do military on this guy". Instead the effects are lasting, and your peace/favor treaties lower in value.

I'll give an example: Let's say I made a peace treaty with you, and then you broke it. You even WON the game for breaking the treaty. My group would applaud you, not hate you, but they will remember. OK! Next game. Let's say my friend manages to pull out an impressive power challenge force, but can only attack one person for the round. Who should he attack? Suddenly everyone is quick to make temporary peace treaties! I'm offering the guy one free honor guard and you just so happen to do the same thing, after all, we both do not want to lose 3 power from my friend's high claim. The typical answer you're going to get is: "Hmm. Either I can go with the person who I know is more trustworthy, or I can go to you, who might backstab me, because we remember what you did last game. I'll probably go with the trustworthy person, UNLESS...I can ask you for an additional minor favor." As you can see, the value of your deals is lowered, and therefore you have to offer MORE in return for the player's risky investment!

You make it sound like "having memory" between games is an option we can select before starting a game. It's not. Would you rather make a deal with me, who always pays his debts, or with any of the other posters here (especially staton??), especially regarding peace treaties! We can't ERASE our memory and say "hmm should I deal with Hencook or efidm? Oh yeah I have to forget the fact that hencook honors his deals and efidm keeps breaking them".

-If they hold grudges like that, I think that's a player issue and not a game one.

I disagree. Now in my game group, we're always going to be making deals and remembering deals, but it's up to the game on how much this is fostered to the point where the game becomes not fun. AGoT is a game that fosters favors in an unhealthy manner. We'll even play other games like TI3, which has loads of favors, but it's still a fun game, because it supports diplomacy well. Okay, well my Melee experience isn't terrible, it's actually still somewhat fun, but we much rather enjoy the 2v2 gameplay. I love agotlcg, I don't like melee.

It just seems strange to assume that the actions from one game necessarily carry over so exactly to every game after. In your example, one guy broke an agreement he made during a game. He probably did this because it was to his advantage to so; it won him the game. But next game, you're assuming he is going to break every promise, just on general principal? He'll do what is in his best interest to do, which may in some circumstances mean that he'll break any agreement, or he may very well keep to it.

The simplest way to break this cycle: don't let anyone be trustworthy. If you or any of the players are constantly keeping your word, knock it off! Try and get yourself into a position where you can win big by screwing over your supposed ally. Don't do it all the time, obviously, but break out of this cycle. If everyone has shown the ability to do some backstabbing, no one will be the designated untrustworthy one.

There is one person in our group who will only play melee now, so we play melee often. When I play a card that has a "favor" effect, I usually chose the player in the weakest position, or whose deck I think it will have the least powerful effect on. At the same time, I have a Neutral Brotherhood deck that every time some plays Spending the Winter Stores they pick me, since I have no "in-house" attachments. So, yes, I tend to not let them benefit off of any of my favors.

We make and break deals all the time. Because all we are interested in is winning the game. If someone else is too close to winning, we point it out. When multiple players are close to winning, we scheme amongst ourselves in order to keep them from winning, but hopefully to put ourselves in the position of the win. One player in our group never tried to make alliances in games, ever. He kept getting the shaft from all the rest of us. Now he makes deals now and then, because 3 on 1 isn't a tenable position. However, it did allow for me to often have that mega-round where I leap 8-9 power for the win.

Playing teams completely changes the dynamic of the cards, and the deals that are made (or not made) during the game. But each group has to come up with a playstyle that works for them. But I would try giving all out melee a shot, and not worrying too much about the favor trading. Or, work it to your advantage. If your playgroup is that loyal, make their loyalty a liability when it comes your time to win.

I am a huge fan of melee and a lot of thought goes into my deck and my strategy when playing what i consider the most accurate representation of the Game of Thrones universe.

First off, your tired of ganging up on the person with the most power, then don't. In melee your not playing against each other, you are playing towards the goal of 15 power. What i mean is unlike joust where you are playing 1 person in a head to head match up to see who is victorious in melee you can't fight a war on three fronts, and even fighting a direct war with someone leaves you open to the others at the table instead you have to pick and choose your openings and your opponents. if someone has 8 power and the rest of the table has 2, don't worry about beating him into dust, the other people at the table will take care of that, you need to focus on getting as much power as possible while he is still the main target. this way when his 8 power turns into 2 your already at 6 and setting yourself up for a final push towards victory. Which is the way i usually build my decks, gather power slowly in the beggining of the game make sure someone else gets out ahead and becomes a target and get yourself somewhere aropund 6-8 power before you make your move.

In terms of Favors i usually uphold most of my deals, i want my friends to feel that i will most likely stand by my word even to my own detrement, the only time i go back on a deal is when it can win me the game of will lead to my next action of winning the game. Melee is too unpredictable to make an enemy for the whole game over 1 power when your only at 4.

Staton said:

You know, I think he's still holding a grudge against me from that game at the Minnesota Regional.

Ok, maybe there should be a ~. I'm not sure.

Blaming the game for how you guys play when there are so many other ways of playing is just silly. Sorry but it is.

There are no rules in the game making you play with the strategy that you do. The cards are open ended and can be used to enact any number of strategies. That your group has chosen to do so in a way that results in you not having fun in this format is not the fault of the game, since each can be used in any number of strategies.

Obviously you guys aren't enjoying AGoT melee. Luckily the game supports other formats of play which you guys do enjoy, and that is awesome. Play those.