While re-reading the gifts and rewards chapter, I noticed that both Projectile Attack (p296) and Flaming Arm (p303) don't list any craftsmanship and have the Spray quality. Which means, per the Spray rules on p151, that potentially your magical flaming arm or your breath attack can jam if you roll a 9 on damage. You then need to make a BS test to unjam your arm-mouth or mouth. Which is a bit odd.

So, is this an oversight and organic weapons don't jam, or perhaps some kind of Infamy test would make more sense to please the gods and allow you to use your arm or mouth again. In which case, if you keep failing to clear your jammed Projectile Attack, should you start choking to death as your mouth is unavailable? I'd say yes as I find it particularly amusing

Projectile Attack also has the smoke quality, which states quite clearly on p151 "Rather than inflicting damage these weapons through up dense clouds of smoke." So if the potential of choking to death on your own maggot-vomit or warp flames isn't funny enough, your breath weapon is apparently harmless!

So do you think we should errata the smoke entry, or remove the keyword from Projectile Attack?

Actually, speaking of spray attacks, I assumed that, like the flame rules from Deathwatch, if you don't have the appropriate weapon training the target gets +20 to the Agility check. Can't find it covered under spray, flame, combat, weapon talents or anywhere. Have I missed it or is this another errata opportunity? Also, I don't think it explicitly states that Projectile Attack or Flaming Arm count as a natural weapon, so it could be argued (by a particularly cruel gm) that the player would need to by an exotic weapon proficiency or suffer the above mentioned 'penalty'.

On a related topic, if you get a flesh-fused ranged weapon (p302), can you choose what ammo type you create? Should it be the same as the type that was in the weapon at the time, in which case if you had a fire-selector with 3 ammo types can you pick and choose? Or once a clip is used should it be replaced with standard ammo? Can you upgrade the weapon (probably via some kind of long bloody ritual)? If it's a las-gun is there any reason you can't overload it every time as the gun never jams per the craftsmanship rules?

Also, as the weapon is now your arm/hand, does that make it eligible for two-weapon fighting? You wouldn't be able to use Gunslinger or Sidearm, but the idea a chaos marine can potentially have twin lascannons with an unlimited ammo supply is pretty awesome. Or very wrong.

While re-reading the gifts and rewards chapter, I noticed that both Projectile Attack (p296) and Flaming Arm (p303) don't list any craftsmanship and have the Spray quality. Which means, per the Spray rules on p151, that potentially your magical flaming arm or your breath attack can jam if you roll a 9 on damage. You then need to make a BS test to unjam your arm-mouth or mouth. Which is a bit odd.

So, is this an oversight and organic weapons don't jam, or perhaps some kind of Infamy test would make more sense to please the gods and allow you to use your arm or mouth again. In which case, if you keep failing to clear your jammed Projectile Attack, should you start choking to death as your mouth is unavailable? I'd say yes as I find it particularly amusing

I'd personally rule they don't jam, but I can't find anything to say that ain't a house-rule. However, if they do jam, saying you're now choking is most definitely a house-rule that adds nothing but player annoyance. Might be funny to have the player have to gag or cough up some vile warp slime, but actively trying to kill them? Hell no, **** move.

Projectile Attack also has the smoke quality, which states quite clearly on p151 "Rather than inflicting damage these weapons through up dense clouds of smoke." So if the potential of choking to death on your own maggot-vomit or warp flames isn't funny enough, your breath weapon is apparently harmless!

So do you think we should errata the smoke entry, or remove the keyword from Projectile Attack?

I'd say the instead of damage part falls purely into descriptive fluff rather than hard rules. The weapon lists damage and the quality. If it didn't do damage, it wouldn't have listed damage. Oversight/errata, clearly.

Actually, speaking of spray attacks, I assumed that, like the flame rules from Deathwatch, if you don't have the appropriate weapon training the target gets +20 to the Agility check. Can't find it covered under spray, flame, combat, weapon talents or anywhere. Have I missed it or is this another errata opportunity? Also, I don't think it explicitly states that Projectile Attack or Flaming Arm count as a natural weapon, so it could be argued (by a particularly cruel gm) that the player would need to by an exotic weapon proficiency or suffer the above mentioned 'penalty'.

Well, I can't find it either, and so by the rules you simply don't need the proficiency for a spray weapon. Or rather, you don't test it and they don't get bonuses to dodge. Which kinda makes sense. Hitting people with a giant spray of whatever isn't exactly difficult. Not sure if this is an intentional change or just a miss. I'd actually suspect the former.

On a related topic, if you get a flesh-fused ranged weapon (p302), can you choose what ammo type you create? Should it be the same as the type that was in the weapon at the time, in which case if you had a fire-selector with 3 ammo types can you pick and choose? Or once a clip is used should it be replaced with standard ammo? Can you upgrade the weapon (probably via some kind of long bloody ritual)? If it's a las-gun is there any reason you can't overload it every time as the gun never jams per the craftsmanship rules?

I'd personally rule that it comes with what it was loaded with last, but I'd also allow a bit of praying and ritual, along with a sample of the new ammo, to allow the wielder to gain a sort of supernatural fire selector with the new ammo type(s) added to it. As for the las-gun, no, there ain't far as I can tell. Then again, you just got flesh-fused to a las weapon. Might as well get something to make it somewhat appealing next to getting something like a bolter or plasma gun!

Also, as the weapon is now your arm/hand, does that make it eligible for two-weapon fighting? You wouldn't be able to use Gunslinger or Sidearm, but the idea a chaos marine can potentially have twin lascannons with an unlimited ammo supply is pretty awesome. Or very wrong.

Well, I'd certainly say you can wield that weapon one-handed and two-weapon wield it with others. However, I wouldn't allow you to fire TWO two-handed weapons unless they're both flesh fused, in which case you better hope for more limbs or enjoy a life of brushing your teeth with your feet! So yeah, twin lascannon arms... sure, if they score those very specific mutations. Have fun, Killie McNoHands!

Well, I'd certainly say you can wield that weapon one-handed and two-weapon wield it with others. However, I wouldn't allow you to fire TWO two-handed weapons unless they're both flesh fused, in which case you better hope for more limbs or enjoy a life of brushing your teeth with your feet! So yeah, twin lascannon arms... sure, if they score those very specific mutations. Have fun, Killie McNoHands!

And that's where that Tzeentch Chaos Organ comes in!
Further, Two-weapon-wielding is explicitly restricted to pistol-type weapons. Astartes in Power Armour can use basic weapons one-handed without mutations, but they can't dual-wield them.

Other than that, I quite agree with Reverend Mort.and would like to add that there actually is no "Flame" listed among the specialisations of the "Weapon Training" entry. Sounds like intentional change to me.

Cifer said:

Two-Weapon Fighting rules p243 to 244 - "The character may use any melee weapons or ranged weapons that can reasonably used in one hand." The Gunslinger and Sidearm talents specifically mention pistols, this may have caused the confusion.

Not sure how I missed the lack of Flame weapon training, that does make it look more like a rules change than an oversight. Legion Weapons Training does mention the Flame category, but thats probably more of a completionist thing than an error per se (as they wouldn't need training in weapons you can use untrained).

To derail my topic further, I also note that there is however weapon training Throwing. Apparently, taking Weapon Training: Throwing gives you access to Throwing Pistol, Throwing Basic, Throwing Heavy, Throwing Melee and of course Throwing Throwing. I think its clear that it should be Weapon Training: Thrown, and that Throwing should be removed from the list of weapon classes. unless I've missed something and bolt/chain/etc. thrown weapons will soon become available!

The rule for untrained spray weapons is in the "Using Weapons Untrained" box on page 148. Targets get a +20 to their test to avoid the attack if you're not trained. It specifically uses a flamer as an example.

As has been pointed out before, however, the Weapon Training talent is missing a "Flame" option, but has Heavy and Throwing options (perfect for those Heavy Pistol weapons--also, note the difference between Heavy Throwing and Throwing Heavy) so there's clearly some problems with it. Flame is one of the categories in the list for Legion Weapon training. In our game, we're ruling that you need a Weapon Training:Flame talent (or Legion) to keep enemies from getting the bonus.