Greetings,

Just as it says in the title, I'm pretty new to the world of Warhammer 40K and Dark Heresy. I have played various RPGs for a couple of decades now, and just to try something new, I got the core rulebook for the game recently and I tried it out with my gaming buddies. I wrote up a very simple adventure ("Bad guys are over there! Go get them, and we'll pay you!") just to try out the rules, and my friends rolled up a few characters: an Imperial mercenary, a hiveborn Tech-Priest and a feral scum. We found the game quite fun, and the game world is very engaging, however, I was hoping the Emperor could shed His light on my doubt-plagued mind...

We have noticed that the skill level is rather low compared to other games we usually play (no more than 35 to 40% at best for the characters we rolled up). I realize that characters are meant to improve over time, but most of my players couldn't help but notice that their chances of success relied more on getting situational bonuses (ganging up on bad guys, full-auto fire, relying on the tech-priest for anything requiring batteries, etc.) than on raw skill alone. Is this normal, or were we just unlucky with our dice rolls?

My next question is a bit more specific. Do elite advances (those not covered by a character's career path) include skills or talents that are part of a career path but at a later rank? For instance, can a rank 1 Guardsman ask for an elite advance to learn to use bolters or chainswords (only available later) or can a rank 1 psyker save up to learn Psy Rating 2 before getting the required rank?

My last question is a matter of personal opinion, but I'd like to get some outside opinions on which supplements are most worth buying? I'm especially thinking about Ascension, Inquisitor's Handbook and Creatures Anathema. My main concerns are usefulness and budget: my son is not toilet-trained yet, so every box of diapers is one less gaming book I can afford...

Thanks in advance!

Dyvim Matt said:

Your mind is both in doubt and plagued? Sounds an awful lot like heresy... *BLAM*

Dyvim Matt said:

That is perfectly normal. Remember to give routine actions a bonus if you judge them to be fairly simple or simply don't make a roll at all. It's been a long time since I read through the rules for Dark Heresy specifically, but you should only be doing rolls for things that actually take effort. For example, anyone that has the Speak Language (Low Gothic) obviously shouldn't have to make a roll as soon as he talks. Nor should anyone with Tech-Use need to take a roll to push a button or a soldier of any kind have to make a roll to determine whether or not he manages to change the batteries on his Lasgun.

This is entirely up to you as the GM to determine, of course. Also, in Dark Heresy, you're meant to be simple scrubs from the beginning and everyone should be prepared to roll a new character, because they will die. They will die. Possibly multiple times, before they manage to pull themselves up from the slimy ooze of mediocrity. But that's part of Dark Heresy and part of it's charm.

Dyvim Matt said:

An elite advance can be literally anything. It is entirely up to you as the GM to determine what is on the table in terms of an elite advance. An elite advance is simply an advance that would otherwise not be available to a player under normal conditions. I think there's even a note somewhere saying that you're encouraged to invent your own, such as Peer (Teddy Bear Brigade) or whatever is appropriate to your campaign and the situation your players are in.

Dyvim Matt said:

I just started playing DH with a friend of mine and we encountered the same thing about roll success. I had read the rules many times before and knew the likely problems that would occur, but it really took playing the game to see how it differs from other games in terms of balance. So far we have come to the following conclusions.

1. As mentioned Rolling should only happen at dramatic moments, when success is in question and there are consequences for failure.

2. Encourage your players to scrounge for bonuses. Have them try to use equipment or to do something to skew the odds in their favor. An auspex is handy to have in making perception rolls, for example, but there may also be other devices you may want invent to help them along. In encounter design think of a few ways they can turn the odds in their favor. In general each bonus should provide +10%.

3. For rolls that provide information and move the story, create a staggered list of information based on success, and then have them roll at +30%. For each degree of success, provide them a more complete picture of the information they are seeking.

4. Remember fate points. Fate points allow you to make rerolls or to add to your degrees of success. Use them as a dramatic tool, as a final option when the players decide success is necessary. Then remember to refresh their fate when they are in safety and can rest. I would also refresh fate points when they end up having particularly bad luck, as a kind of karmic rebalance. If one player ends up with a surprisingly sucking wound in the first round of combat, maybe they deserve a fate point for that (assuming they didn't already spend one to avoid it).

5. Failure is a part of the game. Don't over refresh their fate points or the game will be all about using it as the currency of success. When writing encounters be sure to include something for when they players have no luck. Don't require them to succeed at everything. Half the drama is feeling like odds are against you.

Thanks, guys!

I realize that rolling dice isn't necessary for routine stuff, I just wanted to make sure I got the basic mechanic correctly.

What got me worried is a fight scene we played in which my three players were facing one combat servitor. They only managed to beat the servitor through one player shooting point-blank full-auto fire, the other two ganging up on it with melee weapons, and spending a couple Fate points. Throughout the scene, I couldn't help but wonder if a fight like that was supposed to be so hard...

There is alot of failure starting out, but there are bonuses you can pick up as you advance. It is pretty easy to raise your main stats by 10 points and pick up skills at +10-20 as you go along. Starting level combats are pretty funny though, you go rounds between actually contacting you target. No worries, it will get better.

Also you can be flexible in the begining with skill checks. Sometimes there are mulitple skills that might work well for a check and give you players an option on what to roll so they have a better chance. As mentioned before, you can hand out bonuses on specific rolls you need to get the party moving along. Along those same lines a psyker should really invest in the luck and knack minor powers. They are great and easy to activate.

Fgdsfg is spot on with his book recommendations. I would add Daemon hunter because it contains quite of bit of useful equipment and it contains Cell Directives. A cell directive is a package of advances the party can buy around a central theme, it is almost like an extra single level career. So the whole party forms a theme and pays 100xp to pick up the directive, opening up a number of new skills and such. Very useful if the party does not have access to skills that are necessary for your campaign arch. Blood of Martyrs is also useful, especially if you have someone playing a cleric.

Elite advances can be goodl, but I am always a little hesitant to hand out too many. Weapons that appear later in a career are often better and more expensive. For that reason I normally rather the players wait to the appropiate level to pick up that talent (same to be said for a psyker and psi rating). Likewise I don't like characters picking up abilities that are normally exclusive to a certain career if someone else in the group is playing that career. But if you have player that likes basic weapons instead of pistols or wants to pick up some social skills because no one else has any, Elite advances are great. Also you set the price, so you are in control. Something that helps the party you can give cheaply, while someone trying to poach all the good abilties from everyone else's career you can deny or make it cost prohibitive.

bphill561 said:

There's a good explanation for why I missed Daemon Hunter, though - until you mentioned it, I had no idea it existed. It had completely fallen through my net. Thanks.

We have noticed that the skill level is rather low compared to other games we usually play (no more than 35 to 40% at best for the characters we rolled up). I realize that characters are meant to improve over time, but most of my players couldn't help but notice that their chances of success relied more on getting situational bonuses (ganging up on bad guys, full-auto fire, relying on the tech-priest for anything requiring batteries, etc.) than on raw skill alone. Is this normal, or were we just unlucky with our dice rolls?

It's pretty normal. DH characters are just a small cut above the ordinary people numbering billions upon billions in the Imperium. That's part of the charm, actually - it's like all those movies where an ordinary Joe somehow finds himself in the middle of a big intrigue that can affect the fate of the world. Just make sure the players understand this well.

When it comes to rolling, remember about the modifiers - fixing a toaster should be relatively easy for a trained Tech Priest, even if his rank isn't so high. In combat, make sure everyone understands that pulling a Rambo gets you killed double quick. Stay behind cover, aim, use suppressive fire, throw a grenade or two if you can afford it. Snipers work wonders at low ranks, and can handle themselves well further in the game as well. Fight smart, not hard. And remember, it works both ways - most people in the world, including enemies, only have one life, so nobody wants to start a firefight from a Mexican Standoff.

My next question is a bit more specific. Do elite advances (those not covered by a character's career path) include skills or talents that are part of a career path but at a later rank? For instance, can a rank 1 Guardsman ask for an elite advance to learn to use bolters or chainswords (only available later) or can a rank 1 psyker save up to learn Psy Rating 2 before getting the required rank?

Technically, everything can be bought as an elite advancement, but I'd advise you to be extra careful in allowing things that can be bought through a career path later on - if you allow too much, you can end up with some seriously gimped characters. Career paths are there to encourage a balanced advancement. But it's no hard science, so if someone really wants something he normally has to wait to get, you can probably let him, just make sure it doesn't become a habit. Also, always price such advancements higher than they would cost the character if bought at appropriate rank - either normal price +100 or even normal price x2.

My last question is a matter of personal opinion, but I'd like to get some outside opinions on which supplements are most worth buying? I'm especially thinking about Ascension, Inquisitor's Handbook and Creatures Anathema. My main concerns are usefulness and budget: my son is not toilet-trained yet, so every box of diapers is one less gaming book I can afford...

Inquisitor's Handbook is somewhat dated, but it's still a pretty good book. It contains valuable tidbits about various aspects of life in the Imperium and many options for further personalizing characters and their gear. Just make sure to check the errata.

Creatures Anathema is probably the best "bestiary" book I've seen in years. It contains tons of flavorful enemies, each with good ideas on how to use him in your campaign to best effect. It also has some quick and dirty rules for boosting and personalizing adversaries, which can also be very welcome when you're low on ideas.

Steer clear of the Ascension book. It's virtually unplayable. The book has some great fluff and several great pieces of equipment, but it's really not worth it.

Blood of Martyrs and Daemon Hunter are the best two sourcebooks in the line so far. They have lots and lots of great stuff, both in fluff and crunch departments.

Radicals Handbook and Disciples of the Dark Gods are also worth considering for some darker stuff. Disciples is great for fluff and story ideas, Radicals is stronger in the crunch department.

Morangias said:

Just curious, since we are not nearly close in our campaign to getting to rank 8, but what is it in Ascension that makes it unplayable?

I wouldn't say it is unplayable, but there were several bad choices that made some of the careers just plain bent. The main offenders are the Vindicare, which can dodge as many times as its Agility Bonus a turn (and gets Unnatural Agility later on), and the Psyker, who starts being able to cast without suffering Perils of the Warp (which makes certain psychic powers stupidly good in the Dark Heresy psychic system) and gets unnatural willpower (when most of the Dark Heresy psychic powers play off the willpower bonus: "That will be 10 1d0+10 Pen 10 hits please!"). Some of the other careers are actually fine, but it is seriously let down by some aspects.

Even if you want to use it, it isn't necessary for quite some time. Start Rank 1 and it will probably take you at least a year of a session a week before you need to worry about post rank 8.

Personally I would allow Elite Advances only for those things outside the normal progression, ie things like languages, Peers, Knowledges and the like that are not generally specified and/or the player has a good in game reason for having. Talents (and skills like dodge, ie the more combat related ones), in particular, I would generally avoid giving "cross-class" and earlier than their progression allows, as the way those are granted shapes the careers, and there is usually a reason they higher up the career progression (ie, they are meant to be higher powered talents). Also, remember that characters are not meant to kick ass in Dark Heresy, at least in lower levels. If your players on occasion go: "Oh, what's that? God! **** me! Run!" you have pretty much got it right. Also, as you have noticed, character skill is pretty low. You are correct that they are meant to try and grab all the situational modifiers that they can, and as others have said often a skill check should be at a bonus (remember +0 is Challenging. "Ordinary" is +10, "Routine" +20, and Easy +30). Anything it seems someone who has the skill and training should have no problem with should not be rolled (barring special circumstances, such as a daemon trying to gnaw your face off at the same time, where it might still require a roll, but probably with positive modifiers).

Obviously that does not apply in combat, where unless specified everything is +0 (but there are plenty of bonuses to be found).

I like Ascension - the only reason I don't recommend it as one of the first books to get is because most of the things in it is simply not useful for the vast majority of any campaign or, indeed, any single character's entire history. Especially not with the characters of a Dark Heresy campaign having the average life expectancy of a wet paper tissue.

By comparison, yes, some of the careers may be "broken" in terms of "balance", but in a 40k setting, how can you possibly do something justice without it being broken. It's a Vindicaire. It's a Primaris Psyker. When it comes to depicting certain things in the 40k setting, I can see the problem of preserving balance between the various careers. However, every talent dedicated to this or that is a talent that cannot be dedicated to something else, or a skill, or a special ability.

In the end, it's a roleplaying game. Setting, atmosphere and surroundings trumps game balance every time - and Ascension does that very well. And it doesn't matter if three Vindicaire assassins can take down half a platoon of Chaos Marines in a single turn, if they can't roll a Forbidden Lore (Heretek) to open the door into their encampment.

But yes, there are better supplements. But Ascension is by no means bad.

Are starting DH characters really weaker than starting Dungeons and Dragons characters? Those guys, at least back in the old days, were fragile. The Magic-User could cast one spell a day.

DH is a combination of Call of Cthulhu and pulp action (CoC being itself based on a pulp source, but not an action one). Characters roughly start off as normal people who gradually work their way up to pulp hero level, but never leave behind their beginning squishiness (which I like).

I'd say they are about there. Low health and stats overall. But I think that's what makes the game more fun, its the team work. I think the rules in ascension really makes the DH characters on par if not stronger than Deathwatch Space marines!

Then again the power level is lower for DH, where you are just as Morangias puts it, slightly stronger than the average joe guardsman. Having browsed Blood of Matyrs and Inquisitor's handbook, I think they provide extensive coverage on the sisters of battle.

I also like the home planet and character background which adds bonuses and flavour to the character. I'm still browsing titles that my friends own while they play DH. Hehe.

Deepstriker said:

On the other hand, that makes perfect sense. A Vindicaire or a Primaris Psyker or such really are on par with Space Marines, higher in demand, and shorter in supply.

Fgdsfg said:

Psykers are a whole lot more useful than a first level wizard. They can cast as many times as they like, just they are less reliable than D&D wizards, and it can backfire dreadfully. They also have the fact that they can do useful stuff outside "spell-casting", unlike a low level D&D wizard (well, any d&d wizard, its just later on they usually have enough spells to keep them going). There is nothing stopping a psyker putting on some armour and taking a gun (or in a game I ran, a double handed sword) and actually taking part in combat.

borithan said:

borithan said:

That's where you set up encounters to be a real challenge, even to a Primaris Psiker, or buff up the other characters to be on par. Then toss 48 necron warriors and a couple immortals their way.

If they are extremely powerful, make the rest of the party extremely powerful, and give them extremely powerful enemies. Don't just have a demi-god slaughtering lowly minions while the rest of the party just walks along.

To answer the original question, remember that an "ordinary" skill check is a +10 modifier. And that's for something moderately difficult. "Challenging" difficulty is a flat roll.

But that being said, yes, 1st rank characters are tissue paper, and about as skilled. However, that changes pretty quickly.

Also, as others have said, don't roll for everything unless necessary. And remember fate points. They can be spent to auto-succeed (as an 01) or reroll a failed roll. Early characters should also be looking to stack bonuses.

Erm... auto-pass? How? Spending Fate Points doesn't let you auto pass... well, some Ascension guys get funky abilities that let them do stuff like that, but not generally.

Thanks to everybody for the helpful replies. It's greatly appreciated.

I'm particularly curious about some answers to my question about elite advances. The vast majority of my roleplaying experience is with class-less games. In fact, the last time I played a class-and-level roleplaying game was with 2nd edition D&D, when it was still "Advanced". I noticed throughout this thread that most people's comments about elite advances can be summed up as "do what you want, but watch out for abuses". In most games played in my group (i.e. Call of Cthulhu, HârnMaster, World of Darkness) learning a new skill is done by having the PC try using the skill until he gets a decent rating (as in Call of Cthulhu) or spending XP and justifying the learning through roleplay (as in World of Darkness) but a PC's career choice doesn't impact the process beyond character creation.

I understand that Dark Heresy adds Career Paths to the "spend-XP-to-buy-skills" process, in that Career Paths make some skills harder to learn than others. I realize that, contrary to D&D classes, Career Paths are solidly built into the game world (Administratum, Adeptus Arbites, Adeptus Ministorum, Imperial Guard, etc.) and as such, an Arbitrator might have a headstart compared to an Adept when it comes to firearms training, for instance. Moreover, I imagine it would be helpful to present all the game's skills and talents in small, career-and-rank-sized bites at a time, especially to new players. That being said, based on your personal experiences, is it really such a game-breaker to play a bit more fast and loose with Career Paths and elite advances?

I hope I'm not coming across as nitpicking about details, here. I'm just wondering how to tailor the system to my players' tastes and expectations so as to avoid reactions like: "you're making us play D&D, are you?"

P.S.: I'm not bashing D&D or its players either. It just so happens that D&D is really not popular in my group.

P.P.S.: By the way, is there a book where I can find vehicle rules? I noticed the subject is conspicuously absent from the core book...

(Edited due to sudden loss of writing skills.)

Dyvim Matt said:

The supplement most worth buying is surely Disciples of the Dark Gods by far. It has tons of background information (and rules) for hereticus, xenos and malleus opposition in the form of organistations, indvidual creatures, strategies and weapons as well as psychic powers and sorcery. Next most useful supplement would be the Inquisitors Handbook, especially for players, as it features tons of interesting weapons and equipment as well as rules for alternative homeworlds, character backgrounds and career paths. The Radicals Handbook might take a third place as it is full of great background information, but just as with Blood of Martyrs, Daemon Hunter and Ascension it depends whether you really want to specialize your campaign/PCs into a certain specific direction (Hereticus/Sororitas/Ecclesiarchy, Daemon/Malleus and "epic"/political respectively).

Creatures Anathema is just a mosnter manual, and you already get enough critters with Disciples of the Dark Gods in my opinion.

You can find vehicle rules in Into the Storm (a Rogue Trader supplement), which is a rather helpful supplement for Dark Heresy as well.

Dyvim Matt said:

Being a bit looser probably won't be game-breaking, as long as it is limited to non-combat skills ("Dodge +20 at rank 2.... yes please!") I would be much stricter with Talents though (though I sure you could be a little looser with some of them). However, if you do this there is a chance the players might all become very similar. The truth is that there isn't that much difference between starting Dark Heresy characters (Psyker aside). Stats are random of course, and backgrounds only alter this a little bit. I would only say it is very noticable if the home planet bonus/penalties change the Bonus and/or they rolled well in their "home world" stats or poor in the ones they get penalties for. Yes they get different equipment, which makes some difference, but that doesn't matter for that long, especially as some of the "signiature" items are usually affordable by some of the careers with their starting money. The Guardsman's Flak armour, for example, which does make him about the toughest starting character, is probably affordable for a cleric (maybe the assassin? can't remember their starting thrones), or another career starting as a noble. The careers become much more deliniated by their progression than where they start out (which is mostly being **** at almost everything). Basically I would be concered that by being too free with elite advances you would basically be invalidating people's career choices (not that the trees are in any way perfect... my favourite wtf? is the fact that a Guardsman can only take Common Lore (Imperial Guard) at rank 2. This is the skill you are meant to pick up just for being part of the organisation. I can understand it not just being part of the starting package(as you may use the Guardsman package to represent something else), and it isn't long till you can get access to it (200xp into your campaign), but it still strikes me as a bit silly and unecessarily preserving "The Adept is the knowledge monkey" a bit too much.

As I said, be careful with Talents. Someone complained Fearless was broken and asking how to fix it. It turned out he had given it to players about rank 2 or something as he felt fear was too crippling (I personally feel he just wasn't getting how Dark Heresy was designed to be played, especially as he was regularly throwing minor daemons at his players... rank 2 acolytes facing minor daemons are just meant to run away, and much of their power comes from their fear effects). However, 1) Fearless does have its disadvantage which can be a pain (can't back down from a fight easily) and 2) it is designed as a high level talent. I think it might be rank 8, at least in some of the careers. The problem wasn't that it was too powerful, but that he had given it to them too early, as it was meant to be a talent for the point when Dark Heresy characters are really kickin' ass and taking names.

I personally would never think "Oh, this is just d&d" as even through there are classes (Careers) and sort of levels (ranks) you don't develop the same way ("Yay, next level, I arbitrarily become better across the board and gain random new abilities"). Instead you develop in a slightly more organic manner, based on your choices (even if limited within a career). You can choose certain skills over others, choose to advance characteristics over skills and talents etc. It also means you get to see the benefit as a player sooner ("yay! I get to use this new talent now, rather than until I "level up"). Usually you can get something new every session or so. Also, just because someone has more xp than someone else doesn't mean that they will be better at everything (unlike d&d where a higher level character is just better because he is higher level). If someone went a more generlised route they could easily only be as good as someone who specialised early on (I will admit there are some talents which just make you better, and of course access to them is determined by rank. The Multiple Attack Talents are one example that spring to mind).

For strategizing Elite Advances in your game, I might do the following.

1. Become familiar with the career paths and where they get key talents and skills. The best way to do this is to stat up NPCs and see where the system takes you. This will give you a broad sense of when certain things generally become available and who gets them available first. As you play the game more, you will become better at this.

2. Elite Advances happen because of opportunities in the plot. An Arbitrator gaining Electro-graft Use at rank 2 happens because he has worked successfully for a Magos as a bounty hunter and he/she has been deemed worthy of special training in this regard. Someone might gain training in Pilot (military) if they have been embedded with a naval battalion, and has befriended guncutter pilots and been forced to fly a ship when the pilot died because of enemy fire. The contours of the story will suggest what Elite Advances are available. There are also Elite Advances from the books, like those in the Inquisitor's handbook, that are more complicated dramatic changes in a character's life.

3. Elite Advances are also rewards for doing something particularly great in the game. Perhaps If the players recover an ancient library, they are allowed to take Forbidden Lore (daemonology) (which can be particularly hard to get) and the Armor if Contempt talent. IF they dane to suffer 1d5 insanity points along with a modest XP cost. These advances can work as ways to show how your games have molded the characters through their accomplishments. I might Also consider building Elite advances into the encounters, thus making them seem like "treasure". Inform a player that because they were brave or selfless that they now can get the "(insert cool title here) Elite Advance". It will also help you structure when you should and shouldn't toss them out. On the flip side, don't be surprised if they say "no, thank you". Some people have very specific plans for how they want their character's to develop.

4. Start small, then raise the stakes and rewards. As has been suggested, a lot of problems happen when GMs try to offer powerful talents or skills early. Start with 1 skill or something. See how that works. Next time offer a skill, and maybe a talent, with a downside. Then experiment. It is easy to add to an advance. It can be harder to retcon one.

Well, thanks a lot, people! I think I have a lot of good hints and tips to go ahead and run the game. As a matter of fact, I am having a game tonight (going to run Shattered Hopes) and see how things go from there.

Thanks!