Hi again, continuing my perusal of the pyschic section, I noticed that two of the Tzeentch aligned powers have a rather impressive synergy.

Boon of Tzeentch which allows you to get a bonus to your PR of your next focus power test equal to the number of Degrees of success on this power but injuring you based on how powerful the PR is.

Protean Form which gives you two times your PR in unnatural stats, split as you so choose.

Basically the problem is this, you cast boon of Tzeentch at lets say a PR of 10 (doesn't matter, just an easy number)

You pass the test fairly easily, getting 10 DoS (70+will +60 for bonuses)

This means that you can cast your next ability at a PR of 20, so you cast Protean Form. This gives you 40 Unnatural stats to play with.

Here's where the first problem is to the loop, at what point do you take the damage from Boon of Tzeentch? Do you get a chance to allocate your Unnaturals first? If you do, you can simply allocate some of your bonus into Unnatural toughness, thereby preventing the damage from Boon of Tzeentch.

Anyway, regardless you allocate (x) into TB and (y) into WB, you then cast Boon of Tzeentch again, but due to your Unnatural Willpower, you get a larger amount of DoS on your resolution.

Again you cast Protean form, and my second question arises. At what point do you stop sustaining your first Protean form? I assume you cannot have 2 on at once as that would be silly (even more so then the rest of this post) do you have your TB from the first when you take damage from your second Boon of Tzeentch?

Obviously, if you could prevent the damage, you could conceivably just ramp up the power (trying to avoid perils all the way), get sufficiently high PR, and do crazy, crazy things. Like attempting to move faster then light. That sort of stuff.

TL;DR Within the rules, is it possible to get infinite PR through Boon->Protean loop and then annihalate galaxies from afar? (Also, I am **** well aware this will NEVER happen in a game as your GM would slap you upside the head for trying this.)

Firstly, the damage from Boon occurs "upon using that psy rating", which I take to mean "before the power's effects actually happen".

Secondly, the main question would be whether you can get a suitably powerful loop going before the phenomena and perils eat you alive. Starting at psy rating 10 likely means pushing from the outset and Boon of Tzeentch stipulates that you have to use booned powers at least Unfettered.

My personal take on the matter is that the benefit of Boon of Tzeentch is applied alongside Paths to Power (after determining Fettered/Unfettered/Push, but before the Focus Power Test), and thus you'd take the damage before you gained the benefit of Protean Form.

As for the sustaining part of the question - my personal ruling is that if you're still benefiting from Protean Form's effects when you make the Focus Power Test, then you're still sustaining it until the end of your turn.

I'd suggest contacting Customer Services if you want an official answer, though.

Cifer said:

Protean Form is a Corruption power, and thus can't be used Fettered; it also causes 1 Psychic Phenomena per turn by itself.

It doesn't matter at what psy rating you start at, I was just using that cause it was easy. The point was to demonstrate the loop, not to provide a real game example (this should never happen in a game no matter what).

With regards to the 'upon using that psy rating' the wording is slightly ambiguous, and I'd definately assume your example in practice. I assume in writing the rules this power loop wasn't a major consideration

You'd be using it at unfettered, which provides minimal danger, and many talents can reduce any danger further.

Regardless, assuming we follow your interpretation of Boon (which I could definately see a rules lawyer fighting ) the second part of the loop now becomes important. Can you have 2 Proteans active at the same time? Does one cancel another, which would mean you'd have the first one's unnatural toughness when Boon did its damage. Or do you have cancel Protean before casting a second one, and if so, at what point can you stop sustaining? Free action? Can it be part of another action?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Yeah, not really worried about perils of the warp at this time, more trying to ascertain if the loop itself is solid. Also don't really need to get an official answer, it's just something that peaked my curiosity when I thought about the interaction. Basic theory crafting that has no point in actual play, ala Pun Pun.

Although it might be nice to get a clarifcation when the errata comes out.

Nimas said:

Characteristic increases and other benefits from psychic powers don´t stack. So two protean forms (even if possible) would be pointless. As to when to stop sustaining, idk.

The problem is not the fact that they don't stack, as you really don't care about that. The only consideration is whether you can have the bonus toughness from protean form while you receive the damage from Boon of Tzeentch. If you can't, the loop doesn't work as you kill yourself off with 1-3 itterations. Although I suppose you could extend the test by having a true grit marine with a healer healing up between every itteration ><

@Nimas

Yeah, not really worried about perils of the warp at this time, more trying to ascertain if the loop itself is solid. Also don't really need to get an official answer, it's just something that peaked my curiosity when I thought about the interaction. Basic theory crafting that has no point in actual play, ala Pun Pun.

Pun-Pun doesn't get eaten by daemons mid-ascension.

Other than that... let's see...

The boon would have to be unfettered or even pushed at least once to let Protean Form provide some Toughness and WP. Later iterations could be fettered as the Unnatural WP provides the DoS.

That leaves the Protean Form, every tenth of which would produce phenomena as well as giving out a free phenomenon every turn therafter while trying to get the Boon working again - which isn't assured since Unnatural WP doesn't help with the actual test.

2 things:

1. I would rule the Boon of Tzeneech kicks in immediately after casting the second power, so Protean Form's possible unnatural toughness will not pick in.

2. I would rule that in order to cast Protean Form, you cannot be sustaining a psychic power (that is to say, to "recast" a sustained power, you must allow it cease being sustained). Because Protean Form has a Free Action for its sustain, it technically ceases its effect at the end of the character's turn.

Therefore, with both of these in effect, the loop mentioned simply cannot come into effect.

2. I would rule that in order to cast Protean Form, you cannot be sustaining a psychic power

Why is that?

Cifer said:

I think he means that if you want to cast a power that you are already sustaining, you stop sustaining it before you cast it again.

Has no backup from the rules (as far as I can tell) but its not a crazy houserule to impose.

A necessary cap would be half Psy Rating in a single UnNatural Characteristic. Being able to put all 10 into UnNatural Toughness is what makes the Boon of Tzeentch a real Boon with no drawback. It allows you to ramp up the Toughness quickly so you can ignore damage from the Boon.

The Perils of the Warp, Shocking Quality, and Warp Instability make infinite looping impossible. The most likely outcome is while your character is using their Austin 'Danger' Powers Psy-Enlargening Pump they will get lose their Protean form and make the dice-rolling exercise an massive waste of time that pisses of players and Game Masters alike.

A necessary cap would be half Psy Rating in a single UnNatural Characteristic. Being able to put all 10 into UnNatural Toughness is what makes the Boon of Tzeentch a real Boon with no drawback. It allows you to ramp up the Toughness quickly so you can ignore damage from the Boon.

The Perils of the Warp, Shocking Quality, and Warp Instability make infinite looping impossible. The most likely outcome is while your character is using their Austin 'Danger' Powers Psy-Enlargening Pump they will get lose their Protean form and make the dice-rolling exercise an massive waste of time that pisses of players and Game Masters alike.

Cifer said:

I probably should qualify what I said a bit more cleanly:

"In order to cast a psychic power that is sustained, you cannot be actively be sustaining that power."

Otherwise, one could theoretically sustain the same power multiple times on oneself. And that leads to a whole can of worms I don't want to mess with in my games. As such, I would say its a requirement that the power not be currently sustained when casting it again.

KommissarK brings up a valid point. If its possible to sustain multiple identical psychic powers and stack their effects, that has some very odd ramifications.

Imagine TK Shield stacked for example. That can become an obscene amount of armor points very quickly, especially if pushing/Paths to Power. Even just two or three TK shields stacked would make for a pretty ridiculous level of armor.

It seems to me to be a common sense sort of thing that shouldn't necessarily need to be spelled out, but it probably doesn't hurt to do so.

I also think that Protean Form really should state that the Unnat Attribs can only be applied to physical attributes. Possibly there can be some argument that a "face" would want UA Fellowship, but the description of the power indicates that its intended to be a very obvious, very freaky combat form. Obviously, I don't know the mind of the designers, but I don't think it was an intended use of the power to switch on Protean Form while researching and capping out UA Int, or having a Protean Form that looks EXACTLY like your normal form...except for the stack of UA Fellowship you have to convince people that Chaos is good and the Emperor is stinky poop. Or a protean form that's exactly like your regular form except for the massive UA Willpower making you into an even more god-like psyker.

Obviously its interesting that the power COULD be used like that...I just don't get the impression its intended to serve in that function.

Forgive me if this has already been covered, but I don't think Psy Rating counts as a Characteristic. Therefore, how could you use Protean Form to enhance it?

@Zarkov

You don't. Instead, you use Protean Form to give yourself Unnatural Willpower, which adds DoS to Focus Power tests.