So, I've been flipping through the Deathwatch book, and found Hordes, which I rather seem to like, but I have a few questions, in regards to them:

1. How large/numerous does a group need to be to become a Horde? I like Eldar, and could see a group of Guardians, Scorpions, or Banshees charge a group of Space Marines, especially one that isn't 10+ large (assuming a DW group is likely 4-6 characters, maybe rounded out with some NPC's , but not necessarily). Could a group of 10 Banshees qualify as a Horde (maybe Mag 15-25)? The Magnitude vs. Health could reflect a combination of their sheer agility to avoid hits, and Elite standing as Aspect Warriors. It seems a nice way to deal with units of foes, without having to role a million dice to hit, and keeping track of each AW's Wounds. Being small enough to fit into an Enormous vehicle, would they count as Enormous, or be spread out enough to still be Massive, as the rules for Hordes claims?
2. How does one sneak another guy into the group? Many units have a Leader character intermingled with them. Would you keep him/her separate, using their stats as is, and have them act as a separate unit, even among the throng of warriors? Could you make hitting him among the troops be a Called Shot, to give him a higher survivability rate compared to a Multitude-bearing Horde? Could you have a group of Guardsmen with a Lascannon-toting duo in them, making it harder to peg the individuals, and allowing others to man the gun, as necessary? Would they just have a second attack, with the lascannon as normal (not increased damage or accuracy), or would I keep them separate, and just put the Horde in front of them, to give them Cover? Eldar Guardians often carry a Starcannon or Brightlance, and it stays alive and usable as long as any Defenders are still around to use it.
3. For the purposes of the Command Skill, could you have a Leader make one treating the Horde as one individual? I see a Field Commander barking orders at whole groups of guys, each moving as a unit, and figure each one could benefit as a single target, since so much else of being a Horde works that way. Communication equipment could make this doable, and a truly capable Leader could strategize over 3-4 Hordes at once.
4. How well does the Horde setup work in other games? I could easily see a group of Throne Agents having to pacify a mob of Cultists, in fact somewhat more likely than Space Marines. Would even a small Horde (Mag 10-25) be way too much for a group in Dark Heresy/Ascension?

A somewhat unrelated question, but one I really want to ask, what value does Command even have? Nothing in the write-up seems to be beneficial. You order someone who is your subordinate to act, but that could easily be a free action speaking bit. They don't get any bonuses for following your orders, as it reads, to me, and are only affected if you fail, where they shoot worse, disobey, or fake you out. Am I missing something in there? Are there any things you can take where you could orate to the advantage of your followers, giving them actual benefits to listening to your stirring rants? This could be what makes having certain leaders be an advantage over some nameless shrub the soldiers have never met.

Okay, thanks to anyone who is willing to share their insights.

venkelos said:

In my experience, if there's one thing Space Marines excel at, it's annihilating Hordes. Hordes of Magnitude 30 are generally considered negligible by my Kill-Team (we have 4-5 members). While the smallest Horde I've ever seen was Magnitude 10, I generally don't use less than Magnitude 30 unless I have a specific reason for doing so. The thing about Magnitude is that it's an abstract - generally the way we look at it in our group is that one Magnitude is about 10 individuals. So a Magnitude 10 Horde is about 100 troops. I don't know what stats you're using for Eldar, but I question whether Banshees are appropriate Horde choices (then again, I'm not all that familiar with Eldar). Generally Hordes are comprised of throwaway troops. On the other hand, If you want to use your mechanic with Magnitude vs Health, feel free, I'd be interested in hearing how well that works out.

venkelos said:

It's pretty easy to conceal elites inside a Horde, and you have a couple of options for doing so. You can stat them out separately and take actions on their own initiative, and generally assume he's not affected by attacks against the Horde unless the Kill-Team specifically targets him. The other option is to mesh him seamlessly with the Horde - maybe he's got his own gun or something, but treat him as part of the Horde's Magnitude.

venkelos said:

I do this all the time. Generally I don't have my Leader NPCs make command tests unless there are extenuating circumstances - like, say, the Kill-Team just set half of a Horde on fire. Which also happens, all the time.

venkelos said:

The thing about Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader characters is that they're squishy. They're pretty good at avoiding damage, but horrible at mitigating it. The extra damage dice from a Horde, and the fact that Hordes can't be dodged, would be pretty lethal if the Horde managed a hit. A Magnitude 10-20 Horde might be okay though.

venkelos said:

You might need a Command Test to keep your Hordes from breaking once they hit half Magnitude. For individual NPCs, a Command Test might be necessary to make them talk about something they were told to keep quiet about. In combat, I rarely use the Command skill except with Hordes, but in roleplaying there's plenty of opportunity for it.

Wow, I must've misread the book, because I remember something like a 50-member Gaunt squad being a challenge to a Kill-Team. Figured that, while the book says it's not 1-to-1, it could be close-ish, maybe 1 Mag - to - 3 characters. I can't imagine slaughtering 300 people easily, without getting pretty trashed, in the process, swarmed over, and held down to the point where they can't fight. I sort of hoped that, being a Massive individual, a Mag 30 horde could fit into a Massive transport, or at least an Immense one, but a Land Raider can't carry 300 people, unless they are also Clowns.

Also thought it might take longer to widdle down 30 hits, though I suppose 5 Marines with multiple attacks could deal out 30 hits sort of quick.

As for stats, it torques me off that the Deathwatch book didn't include Eldar, and maybe Orks (God I hate them!), too. With some of the significant changes between DH, RT, and DW (why they can't be just a bit more similar), I'd probably have to do some major tweaking to make them work against the Emperor's finest. I didn't really think that a group of Eldar would make for a good Horde, but I hoped, since it would be easier to keep track of then 9 Initiative-tweaked, power sword-swinging Banshees, each with Health and crap, trying to dice 5 Space Marines, who probably don't care, even if Banshees can shred them in tabletop (it's different, but still, the Space Marines and their Chaos counterparts can't be the only talented beings in the Universe :_( ). Maybe one of the other DW books has them, so that Space Marines can battle Aspect Warriors, big Orks, and Zoanthropes.

It makes me a bit sad that I so grossly misinterpreted this stuff. I might have to rethink how to use them. Luckily, any game of this is a ways off in the future, so I'll have time to plan.

venkelos said:

Remember, Magnitude is abstract. Magnitude 1 being 10 individuals is just how my Kill-Team interprets it. If you wanted a Magnitude to equal 1 to 3 individuals, that's completely up to you and your group. And as a GM, if you want your Horde to fit in a Land Raider - they will fit in the Land Raider. If anyone asks, they're using sorcery.

venkelos said:

The trouble is that Marines have all kinds of weapons and abilities that allow them to deal bonus damage to Hordes. Your basic bolt pistol fired on semi-automatic deals two hits, base. The rounds are Explosive, so they count as inflicting an additional hit. If the Marine uses Hellfire Rounds, that counts as inflicting an additional hit as well. If the Marine has the Storm of Iron Talent (available at Rank 4 to Tactical and Devastator Marines) they double the amount of hits they inflict on a Horde with Semi-Auto, Full-Auto, or Flame Weapons. So a BOLT PISTOL just inflicted 8 points of Magnitude damage.

Then take a look at the Astartes Heavy Flamer. A flamer hits a Horde a number of times equal to its range divided by 4, rounding up, +1d5 hits. The range on a Heavy Flamer is 30m, divided by 4 is 7.5, rounding up is 8. Add 1d5, say you rolled 5. 13 hits. If the Marine has Cleanse and Purify (Rank 1 for Devastators, Rank 3 for Tacticals) they get a bonus d5. Say you roll 5 again. 18 hits. If you have Storm of Iron as well, you get 36 hits. BAM! Dead Horde, and you don't even have to roll to hit for the flamer.

venkelos said:

Some Orks are given stats in Mark of the Xenos, but not Eldar, for some reason. Tyranids, Chaos, and Tau also got a lot of loving in that book. They gave stats to a bunch of random xenos as well, but not the Space Elves. That being said, a Horde of Eldar, while unlikely, isn't impossible. You could have a Horde of Aspect Warriors or Guardians without too much trouble, I would think. Banshees just strike me more as Elite enemies.

venkelos said:

Don't feel too bad about misinterpreting rules. My group has been playing off and on for months and we still get rules wrong. The system definitely has some kinks to work out, and some rules are simply badly worded or poorly referenced.