Hi guys I'm wanting to roll up a character for an upcoming Dark Heresy game. How viable is it to have a close combat specialist in this game system? I was thinking along the lines of a noble swordsman who for one reason or the other finds ranged weapons distasteful. Any particular career path or skills or talents that I should be investing in?

Cheers

Deathcult Assassins are close combat only (more or less), and they become deadly rather quickly. Works for Nobles, too. You can use the Moritat Background Package which you'll find in the Inquisitor's Handbook.

Cheers

Dok.

If you do not like the moritat backstory, a feralworlder guardsman also makes for a good melee fighter. That could work for a noble from a medieval style feral planet that has recieved formal training from the Imperium but sticks with his traditional styles of fighting.

The IMHO nastiest meleefighters are the Templar Calixis, (Inquisitors Handbook p82). They are a bit tricky to build (wait with increasing your WS for example), and they will not be very impressive during the first four or five levels of play, but later when they get their hands on a forceweapon... ouch...

General guidelines for melee: You are going to want to max out WS. Str is not extremely important since quite soon the majority of your damage will be from the weapons you wield. Agi, toughness, lots of fatepoints and extra wounds makes you last a bit longer, and as a melee fighter you are going to be a priority target. Step aside, wall of steel, combat master and counter attack are excellent defensive talents. Get mighty blow and swift/lightning attacks as soon as possible. Another melee fighter that also has Double Team gives +30 to hit for both of you. Sure strike can be useful against opponents without helmet.

As a starter weapon I reccomend a great weapon with the mono-edge upgrade. They cost only 110 thrones and will be doing very good comparable damage until your shooty friends pick up boltguns. Early in the game you will lack the talents to dual-wield effectively, later when you have all the proper talents it is quite useful. Dual strike is then used to take down things with very high TB. Get a powerweapon (or a forceweapon for the Teplar Calixis) as soon as you can.

From the top of my head... Good luck and tell us how you are doing :-)

Cool that's three very differently flavoured close combat characters for me to think about cheers guys! I have to laugh when I read the Templar Calaxis. It just screams "Jedi" doesn't it? You could even very easily reskin one to be a starchild worshipping sensei!

I'd say the guardsman who later on (with ascension) becomes Vindicare assasin is the strongest melee fighter.

While the death cult assassin gets high unnatural agility that is by far weaker than the unnatural Agi, Str, T the Vindicare gets.

And as the guardsman gets nearly all the cool talents along the way it's no drawback that the Vindicare doesn't get them.

But that said the vindicare is the best choice for every kind of combat oriented char, because he's sooo broken.

Umbranus said:

Broken indeed. Going Vindicare for melee is so wrong in so many ways it's not even funny.

Fgdsfg said:

If I'm ever ging to play my guardsman again it'll be as vindicare. And he is very melee oriented.

Well I am currently playing a Moritat from Dusk, who has the most kill in our party, with the only ranged attacks I have made are those with thrown blades. Of course he might just be borderline Psychopathic/Sociopathic.

Now I plan on stat up a Noble born one, just to see but think of a Noble, who can afford with ease the Best quality weapons mono, to get the bonus to attack roles.

Umbranus said:

I would have a big problem as a GM if someone went Vindicare and then spent all their time in melee. Then again, I have a different view of how to handle a Vindicare than some and how their presence impacts the game.

I have to chime in as well for the Templar Calix. It takes a while to get there and you must be pretty much corruption free. But it really pays off in the end. And it's a really cool archetype. Very jedi-esque. Lotsa fun too.

ItsUncertainWho said:

As a GM I'd never allow the vindicare as is.
But when a GM allows it the next time I'd rather play it myself than have someone else playing it ruin my day. Simple thing.

And the vindicare is buy fare the best melee career in all the 40k books, even if he's not meant to be a melee class.

We have a Noble Born Swordsman in our party who is using the scum package. Just about to hit Rank 6.

He's not the best fighter in the group, (my feral world assassin leads the kill tally of course - that's what 40k assassins do), but the Swordsman has just picked up a power sword and is doing pretty well. The biggest problem for him is the poor multiple attack advancement the scum gets, but I'm all for using elite advances to build a good a good character concept so that is a moot point I guess. People seem to forget that elite advances are RAW too.

Being Noble born, you might want to consider this option. I don't think there would be too many Noble Born death cultists. Using the assassin class for your character would result in a more powerful character during the early levels, but possibly at the expense of style.

The problem I have with the vindicare is the obscene amount of dodge/parries he gets...to broken for words.
By that time you would easily have an Agility of 50 or even 60 and a dodge of +20.

If I would allow I would say half Agility Bonus Rounds down in extra reation, Unnatural Agility adds 1 for x2, 2 for x3 etc.

If you are playing at low ranks (1 through to 5) do not expect much from your melee character in comparisson to shooty guys. On average at low level you will be lucky to get +10 to your attack roll whilst the shooter will easily pass +30 if he knows what he is doing and can hit multiple times.

Shooting only needs BS and Ag to work where as melee needs WS, S and Ag and BS for most classes is usually cheaper to raise and S is typically a nightmare unless you are a guardsman, on top of that shooting talents are generally cheeper than melee ones.

Once you get past rank 6 and have power weapons melee becomes more powerful and actually overtakes most shooting for damage output at assension level, until then prepare for a long hard road.

Banjulhu said:

This is very true. Getting bonuses on WS is much harder to achieve than bonuses on BS. Only though obtaining the correct talents can the character overcome those limitations. But in close combat the guy with just a little more skill at close combat can have a very big advantage. It's much easier to avoid ranged combat when it happens than getting out of a close combat situation when stuck in it.

If a character becomes very good at close combat they can take some real advantage of this.

I found guardsman can become a real close combat monster. He gets the stats for close combat very cheap, that being Strength, Toughness, and Weapon skill. For Agility the guardsman pays a slightly increased cost. If you compare this with an assasin, they get Agility and Weapon Skill for cheap, but they pay a lot for toughness and strength. Assassins have the upper hand avoiding damage, and guardsmen deal more damage.

For ascended characters it really depends on the group makeup. If it is a lone wolf style character with no real support form the group then I'd go with Vindicare or Temple assassin. If the character is an an organised group, or one with a lot of ranged specialists it might be better to have a Crusader as the close combat specialist.

The assassin seems to get close combat talents quite a bit earlier than the gaurdsman. Would this make him a bit cooler and more versatile to play at lower levels?

In my experience, the assassin isn't particularly versatile.
You may get the melee stuff earlier, but that also means that you'll be very tempted in dumping all your XP into melee skills right away, which will reduce your versatility.

I would pick the class based on any lacks in your group ~
If there's no smooth talker, go with a scum.
If there's no pilot or tactician, go with a guardsman.
If there's no sneaky infiltrator, go with an assassin.
If there's no psyker, go with a Jedi Calix, errh, Templar Calix

Hm good point!

In terms of versatility though I was more talking about how versatile he could be in close combat -i.e. multiple attacks, counter attacks etc.- rather than his skill set on the whole.

Void Born said:

Hi Void Born

I've just taken my character though exactly what you have asked about so here's what I did.

Buy lots of combat talents. Buy mighty shot regardless of being melee focussed, when you hack down the last guy you're in melee with this will prove really handly when you use the autopistol in the other hand (with +2 damage each bullet) to hose down the next group making a beeline to you before they get there. I have used this tactic to awesome effect, taking on and defeating superior numbers. Going first is massive and a must for assassins (usually why they have the highest body count) so take lightning reflexes as soon as possible. Make you WS or BS high: this is perhaps most important.

My Character, Jungo Max, is a feral world assassin just about to hit rank-6. He has had plenty of options to choose from, and even though I'll be going down the Death Adept path, I have invested in stuff like 'inquiry', 'scrutiny', and 'pilot' to add versitility as well as 'resist fear', 'resist psychic powers' and 'true grit' to reflect the trials and tribulations he has faced. The XP I have spent this way has made him the most versitile character in the group, pretty **** tough, and yes, the biggest damage dealer in the group with both guns and close combat. Ambidextrous, Sword in one hand, autopistol in the other; you will lay waste to vast hordes of heretics and be a close combat machine. I say go for it, it will be more fun than the guardsman at lower levels if that is what you are looking for.

And don't forget good armour. NOTHING RAW says assassins cannot be as heavily armoured as everyone else (I have xeno mesh for style but also have a TB of 4 - 250 XP well spent on toughness), get you hands on some carapace and get amongst it.

Void Born said:

Hi Void Born

I've just taken my character though exactly what you have asked about so here's what I did.

Buy lots of combat talents. Buy mighty shot regardless of being melee focussed, when you hack down the last guy you're in melee with this will prove really handly when you use the autopistol in the other hand (with +2 damage each bullet) to hose down the next group making a beeline to you before they get there. I have used this tactic to awesome effect, taking on and defeating superior numbers. Going first is massive and a must for assassins (usually why they have the highest body count) so take lightning reflexes as soon as possible. Make you WS or BS high: this is perhaps most important.

My Character, Jungo Max, is a feral world assassin just about to hit rank-6. He has had plenty of options to choose from, and even though I'll be going down the Death Adept path, I have invested in stuff like 'inquiry', 'scrutiny', and 'pilot' to add versitility as well as 'resist fear', 'resist psychic powers' and 'true grit' to reflect the trials and tribulations he has faced. The XP I have spent this way has made him the most versitile character in the group, pretty **** tough, and yes, the biggest damage dealer in the group with both guns and close combat. Ambidextrous, Sword in one hand, autopistol in the other; you will lay waste to vast hordes of heretics and be a close combat machine. I say go for it, it will be more fun than the guardsman at lower levels if that is what you are looking for.

And don't forget good armour. NOTHING RAW says assassins cannot be as heavily armoured as everyone else (I have xeno mesh for style but also have a TB of 4 - 250 XP well spent on toughness), get you hands on some carapace and get amongst it.

Void Born said:

Maybe it makes him more versatile early on. Whether this is really cooler, it depends. He really gets loads of great close combat talents right early, to a degree that even my groups Assassin, who is actually the sniper-type, got hold of Swift/Lightning Attack etc. in the meantime. This way he takes out any enemy surviving his lethal headshots with his Power Blade in melee. Our groups Guardsman though dishes out more damage with his Eviscerator in melee and can shrug off loads of punishment from any opposition (who mostly centre in on him due to his massive weapon). Still, the Guardsman is as sneaky as a cargo-8 within a hive spire, whereas the Assassin is dastardly sneaky. Besides, my groups Assassin dished out more than 1000 XP to reach T 42 (he started at T 27), though the T advance costs for Guardsmen is the same (but ours started at over 40).

@Zakalwe: How did your Assassin got True Grit?

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Clerics. They make excellent close combatants, not least because they're tough enough to take the punishment you expose yourself to being out front (and no characteristic is expensive, so you can also be a strong all-rounder).

I'd put a Cleric with a two-handed Great Sword on the table. You'll have to wait a while for Swift and Lightning Attack, but you'll be pretty commanding in combat, put out a lot of damage per hit, and prove less fragile than an Assassin.

Niqvah said:

Oh yes, absolutely! Who needs extra attacks anyway when you panic your enemies with your wrist mounted hand flamer before cleaving them in twain with your eviscerator

Clerics also have access to an enviable amount of varied skills and talents!

Luthor Harkon said:

Hi Luthor.

True Grit was an elite advance made available in Tattered Fates, as was Resist Fear (the module has a table of appropriate elite advances for that adventure). Taking both was appropriate given the experiences of the adventure. Resist psychic was a regular elite advance (he hates witches and has a **** WP). I like True Grit, but I haven't been to crits since I got it though, I try to avoid damage (though as the de facto leader sometimes leading by example makes that unavoidable).

Niqvah said:

I think the Cleric advancement is awesome, especially if you want to combine social and combat. It makes an excellent military officer, a great commisar, a noble mercenary.......

No way I'm giving up on my man Jungo though.