Hey, been a lurker here for awhile. With our group changing from DW campaign to a BC for various reasons (Gm didn't have enough time, SM flat as protagonists)

On to the problem:

Although we haven't yet had our first session, from looking over the rules the powers of warptime and shattertime are a magnitude above everything else. They basically make the psyker superior in combat (depending on weaponry, etc) to any other class. The problem is that they provide too great a benefit without enough risk.

Shattertime is more excusable as you have to pass on becoming aligned which is quite a large penalty, especially for a psyker, but warptime even using it at the unfettered level when you first get it puts you at unnatural of 4. Any problems with hitting are removed by casting precog strike too.

Our GM current plan I believe is to modify warptime to 1/2xPR which means you at least have to cast it at push to get a massive benefit out of it (which is the aim), but I was wondering if anyone else has had problems or has good ways to alter either abilities.

P.s. I reaaaaally love the flavour of the skills, and was hoping to be able to build something similar as soon as I heard that some powers sustain as free action.

I'd strongly suggest trying the powers in play before house-ruling them, because I suspect that on anything but very heavily min-maxed characters with a bit of XP, warptime and shattertime aren't as bad as they seem. They increase your ability to do multiple hits and negate multiple hits, and make you run faster, sure, but they don't reach game-breaking levels without a massive psy rating behind them, which is a lot of XP not spent on getting better at melee.

All it does is, basically, generate 2 extra DoS IF you succeed, for a psy 4 guy. That's 2 extra attacks when lightning attacking/full-autoing, or 1 extra attack when swift attacking/Semi-autoing. Sure, they raise the maximums but they don't raise the target number, meaning that unless you have other ways of raising your actual WS or BS, you're most likely not gonna get much more than those extra attacks. Sure you can use Precog strike, with requires ANOTHER test, risks more phenomena (or less of a bonus!) and is also based on a THIRD Characteristic (So far you need solid WS/BS, WP AND PER. Expensive or lucky!). All this plus all the pre-req powers needed to get this far is no small feat of XP. You could get there pretty easily as a human, but then you're far less scary in melee than a Sorcerer, who can't even start with the Psy rating to buy warptime, much less the power itself!

It's also a few extra hits dodged or parried, but you're still only rocking one reaction, so you're sucking on lead candy if the guy with the machine gun brought a twin.

You can also push and get higher ratings, sure... but then you're pushing, so phenomena! Hell, even if you don't push, the sustain means all your other sustained powers get slightly worse and your phenomena gets worse too.

And a bit of an XP note. First of all, to have access to Warp-time you're a psyker, which means you don't start with as good a set of equipment/talents/skill as a dedicated straight combatant. Furthermore, to GET warp-time you're gonna need to spend XP other characters can spend raising the characteristics or buying talents for combat, evening it out a bit already.

Also, let's face it, psykers do best in melee. BS is bull if you're a psyker, you might as well use psychic bolts which roll for WP, and force weapons are boss, so you're going for that up-close kill. Warptime is great for that. More hits, easier to close, it's gold. It's also a sustained power, so that psychic power test you use for those force weapons? Lot riskier, plus you're hitting more, so of course you're using the killing will more! Which is more tests to provoke phenomena on. Or fetter, sure, and decrease the chance of doing good damage.

So in the end, you're gonna have to buy some melee talents to really get some use out of warptime. Oh, wait, almost all melee talents (especially the big ones, like swift and lightning attack) are Khorne aligned. And if a psyker aligns with Khorne, he losses all psychic powers for as long as he stays that way! So you must either lose your psychic powers or counteract all those Khorne advances with others, unlike your friend Bob the berserker, who gladly paints himself red and puts all his XP into melee stuff. You, meanwhile, must buy lots of other advances to NOT fall into Khorne. It gets even worse if you're gonna try and align with ANOTHER god.

In conclusion, sure, you can spend lots of XP, walk the tightrope dance of "melee stuff but no Khorne" and in the end actually end up with a truly horrendous psychic melee monster built mostly just for close combat who absolutely thrashes everything that gets within range.

That's when Bob (you remember Bob, right, the guy who just bought melee stuff) decides that since Khorne didn't get him a collar for Christmas, he's gonna buy a greater minion named Pete the Pet Psyker. Pete has Warptime too! He spends six rounds to apply profane symbols on Bob and then Bob permanently sustains and enjoys Warptime too!

Bob only had to spend 750 XP for that. You spent at least that much on the psy rating increase alone.

Just sayin'.


TL;DR Hard to balance melee stuff to not fall into Khorne, 750 XP minion gets everybody Warptime so psykers not that much better.

Ok, I see what you're saying. It does indeed take some xp although it is fairly easy to balance out Khorne, as the only skills you will need are swift and lightning to take advantage of the DoS. The main problem is that warptime is too good for being so cheap. Basically all it requires is that you spend 400xp for the power, as the 750xp for the increase in psy rating is almost a no brainer. Any psyker is going to increase their rating as it improves all their powers.

My Gm basically likened it to clerics in D&D (at least 3.5 ) in that they can use buffs to become equal (or close to) of a melee or ranged character (warptime plus any rapid fire weapon is good too, saw multilazer mentioned by someone) and still maintain the utility of their other abilities on top of that.

I'm not saying its the be all and end all, but that its too good for the cost it comes at (xp and lack of sacrifice)

As for Bob, the fact that he:

(a) needs to have both 55 fellowship and 50+ infamy whereas the pysker can get it from begining of the game

(b) needs to spend alot of xp (fellowship upgrades and greater minion) just so that he can compete on an even level. Basically the fact that warptime is balanced vs warptime is not really a good argument for maintaining its current level

TL;DR warptime too good for being too cheap. (also Bob's dead )

It's not that it's "cheap" it's that the xp you spend on warptime isn't giving you that much more than that xp would somewhere else. Also, while psy rating "might be a no-brainer" it's still XP you spend on something that only pays off with other XP expenditures.

Warptime is 400 xp. The psy rating needed to get it costs an extra 750-1500 depending on what you are. That's a total of 1150-1900 xp to get it.

For that much, I could pick up the entire two-weapon fighting tree and then run around with two balanced melee weapons doing TWO separate lightning attacks for a single half-action at NO penalty. You get two extra hits IF you hit, and you provoke phenomena (hell, if you wanna maximize, of course you PUSH and thus guarantee phenomena!) I, meanwhile, get an entirely new attack to Lightning attack WITH! And then when you buy two more psy rating to get 1 more DoS, I buy frenzy, get 1 extra DoS too AND do +1 damage with every hit! Hell, since I got points to spare I splurge for Battle Rage and minimize the risk of killing my friends too! And I STILL have points to spare!

Who the sucker now?

As for Bob, he can afford it. As a Khornite, his advances are CHEAP, and with all the XP and good rolls you've spent getting a solid WS/BS, WP, P (and S, T, A if you're gonna do the melee thing) he can afford to put some points into Fellowship. As for the Infamy, yeah, bit harder, but then again, considering he's a Khornite out killin' he's doing the **** he's supposed to, and as an aligned character he has a lot more opportunities to gain infamy by doing that.

Secondly, my point isn't that Bob can't compete without warp-time, it's that he's already competing! All that XP you spend on being a combat pysker (not counting all that XP you're spending on being anything BUT a combat psyker) he spends on being a khornite berserker, and he gets his money worth. He does more damage than you per hit (Cheap Str, easy access to boosted Unnaturals due to Khorne, Frenzy) he gets to hit more (Talents like Blademaster and boosters like Frenzy) and he can't be ****** over by a null field and never needs deal with phenomena from anything but the pyskers he kills.

ON TOP of this he can spend 750 xp (plus 1 or 2 fellowship increases) to get a psy rating 6+ish pet psyker to give him warptime too.

In short, Warptime is a way to make a combat competent psyker, and perhaps a bit "front heavy" but it's not a far superior expenditure of XP in comparison to building a straight up combat character, especially since (And this is important to take into consideration) a character that starts out as a psyker starts out without a lot of talents for combat that someone who picks something else doesn't. Now can you build a psyker who's really good in melee? Sure! But point for point you're not gonna be that much more dangerous than the guy who just builds a combat character.

As for your gm's change, realize this. As he works it, a psyker gets half his PR as the unnatural, and then gets half of that as extra DoS on success. A psy rating increase of 4 gives 1 DoS. 3 if you round up. For that much xp, I could just buy more WS and not deal with the dangers of sustaining or the risk of phenomena. Warptime becomes more or less useless for anything but going faster, and even then it's rather lackluster.

I suggest trying it RAW before house-ruling it, it's utility might become less impressive than you think while in play. Also, when you try, don't try it on the most min-maxed monster you can think of, because if that's your baseline for rule nerfing I have a Tzeentchian accountant that will make you permaban economies.

TL,DR Bob is a Daemon Prince

The problem with your example is that you are comparing a significantly different amount of xp. While you may be correct in saying that we should try RAW first (we're not, because no matter what happens here, the Gm ain't buying it ) the example is innacurate.

Playing a human psyker (which I am so I'm mainly looking at it from this perspective) I can start the game with both pys rating of 4, warptime and 100xp to spend on a power plus 250 left over.

As a renegade, you get ambidextrous as a base skill, two weapon fighting costs 500 and bladedancer costs 750. Both of these are unaligned, and if you want to be aligned with Khorne, you're gonna need to spend another 1000xp minimun to do so.

With my psker, I can simply have a decent BS and WP, with maybe a nice agility and just sit back with a multi laser and there is not much you'd be able to do about it. Because warptime buffs agility as well, the psyker is going to move a great deal faster then your khornite.

Obviously any further (even the example I gave) is going to be nigh useless in a real combat as there are so many other variables. The point I'm trying to make here is that for that 750xp (the 400xp coming out of starting talents, similar to the khornite gaining ambidex) the advantage gained is far too significant.

Oh, and in reference to the Greater Minion, assuming starting fellowship of 50, you either have the choice of paying 1500 for +15 fellowship and 750 for the greater minion also delaying your alignment to khorne significantly, or you become aligned first and have to pay 2250 for the fellowship.

TL;DR can't really think of anything witty, so...RAWR!

Nimas said:

Fuzzy interpretation here - personally, I require that players resolve all their starting skills, talents, traits, etc before spending XP, so a starting Psyker gets 500xp to spend on psychic powers before he gets a chance to increase his Psy Rating, at which point he can't afford both Psy Rating 4 and Warptime.

Even assuming your interpretation is valid, a starting psyker with 45 in BS, 50 in WP and PR 4 and a Multilaser still needs to Brace to operate the weapon effectively (reducing the usefulness of the agility bonus increase, as you have to be stationary), and even when firing with a half action aim at short range, you're still only hitting just over half the time. You're hitting twice more than you would otherwise (so long as you hit), but the average number of hits doesn't actually increase by all that much overall (while Unnatural BS and full-auto is effective, it has diminishing returns as the total number of hits is capped by the weapon's RoF - sooner or later, it becomes impossible to score more hits).

Getting the most out of Warptime, except as a speed boost, is expensive. The power itself isn't, but the power itself only really has great utility in combination with an assortment of talents, many of which are Tier 3 or opposed (or both). A PR10 unbound psyker with Child of the Warp, Blasphemous Incantations and a decent BS using Warptime with an Accurate basic weapon with Mighty Shot and Eye of Vengeance is brutal, as is one wielding two force swords with Crushing Blow and Lightning Attack... but both cost a lot of XP to achieve.

Well, I was thinking mostly in the realm of the Space marines. Combat being somewhat of their schtique as it were. But okay, your psyker blows most of his starting XP on getting warp-time and one of his aquisitions on a multilaser.

Mr Renegade also gets a multilaser, and picks Ballistic skill for Androit. He also picks Marksman from his starting talents. Without having spent any of his XP, you now score a grand total of 1 extra DoS over him, but he has +3 to the skill (probably more, he didn't need to get high willpower) and doesn't need to start combat with a half-action of humming. He also, unlike you, completely ignores range. Which means that while you're sitting there enjoying a -40 to your BS test to "snipe" with your multilaser, he's enjoying a leisurely -10. Most likely by the time you get into range with a snowball's chance in hell of hitting, he's already casually sniped everybody! If not, you're just the closest target for a whole bunch o' angry enemies!

He could ALSO buy swift attack (Something which your starting psyker can't) leisurely stealth (or maybe get pilot personal too and Assault Pack!) into combat and shred enemies with his chainsword, while you're sorta stuck playing the ranged game for now. And he has 300 xp left for whatever.

So while you MIGHT score an extra hit, he gets to shoot from further away, enjoys a wider array of skills and talents AND spent NONE of his starting XP to do any of this. You, meanwhile, blew most of your load on doing full-auto SLIGHTLY better than him. He, meanwhile, does melee, stealth, survival, dodge/Parry, intimidation and tactics better than you. And he can spend XP to focus on whatever of the above he wishes to do even better!

In conclusion, yes, Warptime good. Since it's only useful for psykers, who need to spend 750 xp to get slightly better at multiple hits, it loses some of it's power because it has to be balanced against the fact that the psyker's starting equipment, talent selection and wound totals are rather inferior for direct combat in comparison to those of a combat-focused career choice, who boost capabilities almost as good in scoring multiple hits and significantly better at surviving, handling, dealing and doing combat in general.

And TBH if your gm wants to house-rule I'm fine with that. I don't play in his game, but I can still call questionable rule decisions when I see it, even if it's unlikely to change. It's a public forum, more easily swayed people might read it and see my point.

So TL;DR Bob laughs at silly psykers trying to play in the Khornite's court. Tzeentch sighs (without lips?) and waits for Psyker to realize Bolt of Change is better. Birdface knows it's inevitable.

Warptime is definately one of the powers the beggens to be nerfed the most, especially once you start using the rules for sacrificing people and using glyphs so the psyker can place the power on everyone in the group.

Shattertime is not as bad but its still a bit of a mess.

Crate said:

Honestly by the time a Psyker can make Warptime and Shattertime broken (mechanically they're the same except for the vanish bit in Shattertime), everyone else in the group will be as equally broken, if not more so. Warptime makes a melee psyker a realistically competitive possibility instead of an underpowered one. (See all of Mort's Examples)

Crate said:

One thing to note with using glyphs to give out multiple Warptimes... you're still sustaining the power, and thus your Psy Rating gets worse and worse the more powers you attempt to sustain simultaneously. As a result, unless you're hideously powerful - Psy Rating 8+ with a pile of Unnatural Willpower on top - you won't actually be granting all that much extra potency to individuals if you try and use the power on half a dozen people.

Sigh. Ok, one thing I must say is that warptime and shattertime improve more with experience then alot of skills.

Out of curiosity, I worked out the math of a psyker vs a renegade with equal experience:

Psyker:PR+1, Warptime, Swift Attack, Lightning attack, Step aside, Precognition, Preturnatural Dodge, Preturnatural Strike

Renegade: Two Weapon Fighting, Blade Dancer, Swift Attack, Lightning Attack, Step aside

Both these load outs are at 3250xp each.

Assuming both have equal WS (the renegade gets +3 on the psyker) and both are equipped with a basic sword (renegade with 2), then % wise, the renegade will hit once at 54% while the Psyker at 56% with the psyker getting slightly better % (usually about 1%) as hits increased.

Now, a coupld of things with this set up. Yes step aside is useless for this match up for the renegade, but I really didn't feel like working out parry/non parry stuff. In counter, the psyker did not use feint in this run, which would increase fairly significantly (estimate 5-10% in hitting). Also, there is the chance that the psyker explodes in a firey ball, but a not massively significant one.
Now, as we scale up the WS on both characters, the psyker gets the benefits much more then the renegade, or you could double damage for 1250 xp from this position, something quite difficult for the renegade to achieve.

So basically we have 1 power meaning a psyker can achieve equally, or better then (depending on quality of gear, etc) the melee specialist, and they have far more utility, even with these talents.

But one of the best things warptime does is double (effectively when you get it) your movement, something you need to get a tier 3 talent to do once (or more if you're ok with fatigue) 400xp does constantly. And don't forget you also get a decent bonus to your initiative as well. Such a small sacrifice in xp is giving you such a big advantage overall, both experience wise and utility wise.

If anyone cares, the current houserule my GM came up with is warptime gains a duration equal to PR, and when used above fettered level, at the end of the duration you gain 1 level of fatigue.

TL;DR Warptime gains too much for the experience cost that you put into it

Nimas said:

Except it isn't going constantly. With the example you've given, that psyker has a roughly 50% chance to use Warptime Unfettered, and while it remains in effect, other powers he wants to use will be more difficult, less potent(both as a result of reduced psy rating) and more dangerous (bonus on rolls on the phenomena table, something which an unbound psyker really don't need more of). Also remember that a free action is still an action, so if you're stunned you can't maintain any sustained powers - one good hit from a shocking or concussive weapon, or even the stun combat action (especially with the takedown takent) shuts down the psyker and forces him to start all over again once he recovers.

Also consider that a psyker built to use Warptime to the fullest suddenly has two major blocks of expenditute to consider - high-end combat talents aren't cheap, and it's difficult to be appropriately aligned to get those talents cheaper and remain an effective psyker (the most effective psykers are Tzeentchian because of cheap Willpower and several psychic-related advances, followed by Unaligned and Slaaneshi because of moderate willpower costs; Nurgle pays a high price for willpower, and Khorne simply doesn't allow psykers). The psyker needs to pick up an assortment of talents to get the most out of Warptime, which itself is an expenditure, as it the hefty cost of Psy Rating, while a non-psyker combat character will be picking up those same talents without having to fork out for the added cost of being an appropriately potent psyker. As useful as Unnatural WS, BS and Agility are, they don't increase your ability to actually pass those tests, so ensuring a halfway-decent score in each of those may cost a further pile of xp on top of the need for a decent psyker to have a good Willpower and Perception.

Feels like you're forgetting a few factors. Presuming they have an equal WS is a bit odd. Where the Psyker most likely goes for the WP boosters in failings etc, the Renegade can just go for the WS ones. Also, even IF we assume they're equal, the Renegade has 2 less characteristics to focus on (WP and PER) which he can thus pump into Strength and Toughness, gaining more resistance AND more damage per hit. Something the psyker has a harder time doing.

Also, do note that the Renegade gets to attack TWICE. Unless his opponent has step aside, he doesn't even need to feint to guarantee an inability to parry. He also does significantly better against multiple targets, which most fights tend to be. He also suffers less due to a single bad roll, since he gets to try again.

Also, calling the 1 in 10 chance of phenomena insignificant is a bit of a cop-out. The psyker will risk that 3 times per round. Once for his attack, twice for his dodges/parry. He'll also get pluses on the psychic phenomena test, since he's sustaining a power. This increases the risk of unpredictable and possibly debilitating stuff happens. Doesn't need to roll that 100 on the perils to get forked over by something like being knocked down. You're also presuming he succeeds on all those -10 or more psyscience rolls to get those bonuses in the first place.

For speed, the Renegade can easily get his hands on an assault pack and likewise double his movement. Not quite equal, but an equalizer. Also note that unless the psyker is sustaining warptime prior to battle, he doesn't get to enjoy an initiative boost. And if he IS sustaining warptime, he's rocketing around at time-dilation speeds, which is about as subtle as screaming "I AM EXPECTING BATTLE FOR I AM A PSYKER!", not exactly efficient in terms of not provoking those battles in the first place.

Presuming equality of gear is also a bit iffy. The renegade starts with better equipment AND more inclusive and potent proficiences. Yeah, sure, we can compare normal blades on blades. But the renegade starts with a chainsword and the skill to use it. The psyker has neither! And once he does get that, the renegade is already trading that chainsword in for a bonus to score a power sword. Or he's picking up a null-rod and completely screwing over the psyker!

So yeah, Warptime might seem really good in the theoretical white room where all other things are equal. But in the actual game, all those other factors never will be equal.

ok, couple of things, mainly a couple of complaints about the assumptions. The chance that we're going to convince each other is highly unlikely (that's just how humans are built ) but I would like to point out a couple of things about facts, which I can actually call objective the rest of course is just subjective .

First, the chance to use warptime was significantly higher then 50%, as you start at 40-45, get +10 for psy focus (this was my fault that i didn't mention, for that I apologise) then +20 for the unfettered check, so 70-75%. I assumed the psyker had it due to starting items. I didn't assume they had best craftmanship weapons, as that would improve the psyker's chances over the renegades.

Also, major contention is that you assumed the psyker was casting 3 things a round. The only power used other then warptime was preturnatural strike. The chances of this going off was about 65-70% depending on stats (I went the low end) and when it failed to cast was figured into the % chances. The fact that there was a 1/10 chance per round, followed by another chance that the psyker would get himself killed (either via losing abilities, being stunned or becoming a daemon prince) was something I considered fairly unlikely, something that should be noted as a chance, but was unlikely to affect the conclusion of the fight (it would most likely be over before there was a statistical significant chance of these things occuring).

Yes gear can have a significant effect on the fight (back into the subjective here), but the main point I was trying to make is that the psyker was basically the equal to the close combat specialist, when he should be good but still obviously worse. We may argue here, but I find it hard to believe that the psyker is obviously worse then the renegade. One thing on gear, yes the null rod makes things alot harder for the psyker, but I would counter in that a force weapon here would wreak havoc on the renegade.

Again, we're unlikely to agree one way or the other due to us being pig headed humans (i'm definately included in there) but please don't automatically assume I was working from a competely fanciful model as it makes me feel a bit stupid

First, the chance to use warptime was significantly higher then 50%, as you start at 40-45, get +10 for psy focus (this was my fault that i didn't mention, for that I apologise) then +20 for the unfettered check, so 70-75%. I assumed the psyker had it due to starting items. I didn't assume they had best craftmanship weapons, as that would improve the psyker's chances over the renegades.

If we're presuming starting items, comparing them with equal weapons is a bit unfair, since the Renegade starts with a clearly superior one, not to mention the proficiency to use it.

Also, major contention is that you assumed the psyker was casting 3 things a round. The only power used other then warptime was preturnatural strike. The chances of this going off was about 65-70% depending on stats (I went the low end) and when it failed to cast was figured into the % chances. The fact that there was a 1/10 chance per round, followed by another chance that the psyker would get himself killed (either via losing abilities, being stunned or becoming a daemon prince) was something I considered fairly unlikely, something that should be noted as a chance, but was unlikely to affect the conclusion of the fight (it would most likely be over before there was a statistical significant chance of these things occuring).

Well, you listed both preternatural dodge and strike, and Step Aside. And you phrased it as a versus situation (a bad demonstrator of capacity, since PC's rarely fighter other PC's, but that's beside the point). So I presumed that he'd be using them to improve his chances of hitting and dodging, and thus it becomes two dodges and an attack per turn, ergo, 3 chances of phenomena per turn. Hardly insignificant. We're also talking, I presume, long-term characters here. While the chances of phenomena is not guaranteed in a single fight, characters face several. And one built to use this many powers so often is at significant risk, which is a noticeable downside that should be accounted for in comparisons.

Yes gear can have a significant effect on the fight (back into the subjective here), but the main point I was trying to make is that the psyker was basically the equal to the close combat specialist, when he should be good but still obviously worse. We may argue here, but I find it hard to believe that the psyker is obviously worse then the renegade. One thing on gear, yes the null rod makes things alot harder for the psyker, but I would counter in that a force weapon here would wreak havoc on the renegade.

Interestingly enough, you make my point here. They're equal. Two characters who have devoted the same amount of XP to doing the exact same thing... are roughly equally good at it. They differ a bit in the details (psyker is a better one on one fighter, Renegade deals better with groups, Psyker is more subtle, Renegade usually deals a bit more damage per hit, Psyker is a psyker, renegade has more on and off battlefield breadth in ability) but all in all, they are roughly equally good. Their different approaches merely created nuance, not inequality.

Why is this not what we want? Yeah, they have different approaches to it, but they put the same amount of effort/XP into doing it, shouldn't they get equal rewards for their expenditure? The entire point of XP is to create some sort of fair and balanced system that keeps all the players "equal" in the grand scale of things. This does exactly that! Sure, outside of their chosen field of stabbing people in the face, they differ quite a bit, but I certainly won't say that one is superior. The psyker can get other powers, but the Renegade has a wider set of skills that give him more all-around utility in other fields. That and he's safer from being eaten by a daemon.

My entire argument has been that warptime isn't way better than it should be, that it doesn't create a character who beats a non-psyker at the same thing at the same point total. You just proved I was right! Now if you think that two players puting the same amount of xp into doing the same thing should result in one character being noticeably better than the other, that's a different thing.

If that's the game you want then maybe warptime needs a nerf. But that's not a failing of the system to achieve what it wants to achieve, but because what it wants to give and you want to get ain't the same.

Again, we're unlikely to agree one way or the other due to us being pig headed humans (i'm definately included in there) but please don't automatically assume I was working from a competely fanciful model as it makes me feel a bit stupid

I didn't assume that. I pointed out you had missed certain variables that strongly affect the outcome. Doesn't mean you're an idiot, I know from personal experience that smart people miss things too

I listed preturnatural dodge and precog because they're pre-reqs for pre-strike. More of a way of saying, no I'm not blatantly cheating. Yes chainsword is the supieror item, but i went for normal swords as any bonus to hit with WS greatly favoured the psyker over the renegade.

So we agree the two are about equal here, but thats really where it stops. The psyker takes TWF and bladedancer, and doubles their damage. The renegade is hard pressed to get close to that, and any improvements in WS etc and the pysker starts clearly pulling ahead.

The problem is that with warptime, the psyker simply scales better then the renegade.

And should they NOT? All fluff points to psykers being blatantly more cool and powerful than mere mortals. And as has been said time and again, they are hyper-focussing their XP expenditure to get into these niche powers and situations. The same XP spent on another archetype is going to yield a far more versatile and survivable character. So no problem from me.

I listed preturnatural dodge and precog because they're pre-reqs for pre-strike. More of a way of saying, no I'm not blatantly cheating. Yes chainsword is the supieror item, but i went for normal swords as any bonus to hit with WS greatly favoured the psyker over the renegade.

So we agree the two are about equal here, but thats really where it stops. The psyker takes TWF and bladedancer, and doubles their damage. The renegade is hard pressed to get close to that, and any improvements in WS etc and the pysker starts clearly pulling ahead.

The problem is that with warptime, the psyker simply scales better then the renegade.

It's not just about bonuses to WS and how many hits you score, it's about how much those damage those hits do. Renegades, with better Strength and weaponry with more damage and pen, do a lot more damage per hit, which is key when dealing with high Toughness and armor characters who can laugh off any number of low damage hits.

So the psyker takes TWF and Bladedancer (and Ambidextrous, I seem to recall it being a pre-req). The Renegade takes weapon proficiency Power and nabs a power fist. Yeah, the psyker gets to attack as much as the Renegade, and scores a few more hits, maybe.

Doesn't matter much, since the psyker's weapon proficiences are for clearly inferior equipment and the Renegade rocks the house with every blow. The Renegade also has the XP to buy Frenzy, getting +10 to his WS, dealing 1 more point of damage per blow and shrugging off more damage, vastly increasing his staying power. Sure, the psyker can get frenzy too, but unless he picks up hatred to get the prereqs for hatestorm, frenzying means he's locked out of using psychic powers. If he does pick it up, it has downsides of it's own and that's even more XP for the Renegade to spend elsewhere.

In the end, the psyker will score roughly 2 more hits, 4 if dual-wielding, than the Renegade. The Renegade, meanwhile, will get a +10 to WS, bringing down the amounts of extra hits the psyker scores to 1/2, and with the exact same weapon, easily do +2 or more damage per hit. Which is a bit silly, since the Renegade starts with and will most likely continue to have both better weapons and better weapon proficiencies. He's also better at dodging or parrying unless the psyker wants to risk phenomena. The psyker CAN get more hits with precog strike, but that's risking even more phenomena, and on a long-term play character meant to be played and not just fight with in the white room, that's a big drawback.

Most importantly, Damage has a limit. After a while, the amount of pure hurt and hits you're laying down starts going into overkill against anything but greater daemons, and investing further into it is a waste of points. After that, you're better served spending points on diversifying, increasing your survivability or repetoire of interesting or unexpected moves, battlefield control, resistance to stuff like fear and pinning etc etc etc. So even IF warptime reaches a point where it starts outdoing the Renegade (which I'm doubtful it does) I suspect it does so at a point where they both have long since crossed the threshold for overkill and that difference is unlikely to make any sort of noticeable different in-game, except for player **** measuring contests about DPS.

In short, I still think you're excluding factors and variables that speak strongly against your case and failing to look at this from a actual play perspective, which severely changes the importance and impact of certain things. The theoretical white room is a deceptive and distorting environment.

I belive you mean lightning claw as opposed to power fist? Otherwise you can't Lightnign attack with it.

Quest for force blade!

It's also worth noting that it's possible for non-Psykers to benefit from Warptime as well, in several ways. It's not easy, and it probably won't be as powerful as when used by a focused Psyker, but it's a possibility nonetheless. Not to mention that, as others have pointed out, the more the Psyker focuses on being a Psyker, the less exp he has to truly capitalize on Warptime.

I'm tempted to do a thorough math rundown on multiple builds to check out how Warptime fares at various stages of experience progression, but sadly won't be able to until after this weekend.

Fair enough, I'll be quite interested in that to be honest. Oh, and I know that there are many other/better ways to build psyker, I was just trying to make the point (how many points have I made now?) that with pretty much that 1 power you could match a close combat specialist.

Hence the idea to tone the power down slightly (giving it duration/fatigue drawback) that makes it less of a 'always pick this up' type power. (yes i know you don't always pick it up, not my point)

Anyway, I'll look forward to those math run downs when you get time/desire.

@Kasatka

And should they NOT? All fluff points to psykers being blatantly more cool and powerful than mere mortals.

All fluff also points to humans being pitiful losers whose fate is a brutal and above all short existence in a manufactorum or on some battlefield for the IG.
No, those would be the average humans - which we're not playing. We're playing those who are above average and thus those who can hold their own with psykers and CSMs, at least in certain ranges.

@Topic

I'm fairly critical of the power as well, especially since it emulates and surpasses the shtick of the Renegade class for 400 XP. The necessary build-up of the Psyrating IMO shouldn't be factored into the cost of it as a higher psy-rating benefits all psyker abilities. Limiting Warptime's increases to half the user's psy rating or alternatively giving him [psy rating] points to distribute among Unnatural WS, BS and Agi would IMO make the power fair - it still results in a boost to combat abilities, but it wouldn't be essential for any melee-psyker build.

Yeah, I only put the psy rating in there to demonstrate that they had equal experience spent (for the math to mean anything at all) .

@Kasatka

And should they NOT? All fluff points to psykers being blatantly more cool and powerful then mere mortals.

The thing is, this *is* a game, and in games you want it to be as balanced as possible where possible. Otherwise there would be little incentive to play any of the other types of characters. Although I do enjoy the whole psykers/mages are gods who walk the earth idea, with their retinue of Chaos Space Marine bodyguards (meatshields ) and some human servants we dont' give a **** about, it doesn't make for a good story, and it doesn't make for a good table dynamic. If you're just patently better then everyone else, they'll either start to resent you for hogging all the glory, or lose interest in the story as their character and actions are not driving it (obviously there are exceptions to these, and some of them are amazing gaming experiences).

Anywho, there is one minor problem with the distribution idea, in that a melee psyker would cast it once, stack agility charge, then when in combat, cast it again and change it to WS. This does come with its own problems, but doesn't quite eliminate the problems.

The gaining fatigue and duration based that my GM came up with is good if you're a human like my psyker is, but is less effective when you're a space marine with 8 levels of fatigue, although it does make you at -10 to everything which helps.

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure how to balance it at the moment, indeed that it needs balance is an issue of contention . I'm gonna equivocate for the moment and wait for more data.

One other tidbit I would like to throw in the mix. As others have stated that have played the game... Psykers burn the candle on both ends. Once you hit 100 corruption that is it

Using all those powers and risking all those phenomina you will eventually get nailed.

Nimas said:

Why do games have to be balanced? Of all games, RPGs are the ones that don't need to be balanced, because it's about making a story - not everyone in any book I've read has comparable abilities, and the idea of everyone being entirely equal, to me, just sounds boring. Just because a character can be more powerful mechanically doesn't mean that they will actually be the most powerful, as a lot comes down to character/player personality, and also doesn't mean that everyone will only play them because they're "better", because if that's not the character I want to play, why would I play them?

Some of the most fun games I've ever played in were with characters that were notably less powerful than the other characters, but that didn't stop them from being great characters to play.