In the interests of not derailing an existing thread (and soliciting more discussion ) I'm breaking a discussion out into a new thread. Unfortunately, the forum's... ehm, peculiar mechanics don't take well to quoting a couple of posts into a new thread, so here's the link to the old one:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=161&efcid=3&efidt=547300

A couple of us (myself, Fgdsgf, and ItsUncertainWho) got into a tangent regarding the Mechanicum in the Imperium of Man, its place, power, and authority. I'm going to try to repost the tangent:

Fgdsgf : As far as I am concerned, in the Imperium, there is no such thing as a "new ship". All ships are basically refits of older ships that are repairs of even older ships that are copies of copies of copies from the antiquated scrapyards of the Dark Age of Technology.

The only "new" ship that they ever get are reassemblies of older ships, or scrap, by the Adeptus Mechanicus, straight from Forge Worlds, using techniques that are likely guarded jealousy, with the approval of the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition. To get a hold of the appropriate sanctions, the appropriate warrants and papers alone is a baffling task beyond comprehension. Add to that access to facilities and a documented, approved AdMech workforce.

If I were the GM, I'd consider letting them "construct" a "new" ship, but it would likely have to be with the seedier clientele of the Imperium, such as pirate Voidstations and mechanics and so on - and it would be a major undertaking, worthy of a campaign on it's own, involving the entire group, not simply a few rolls, money and a fast-forward time period.

As for "new" weapons, xeno refits, armors, batteries, etc; Go wild. Just remember that you set the boundaries and that you have to be able to say "No".
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Tyraxus : Sure there are new ships. The Cobra class destroyer is described as being the closest thing the Imperium has to a mass-produced starship, with a decent shipyard able to turn one out in a scant few years.

Fgdsfg, why would the Ecclesiarchy need to approve of a new ship? While the Mechanicus and Ecclesiarchy can overlap in many areas, why would the construction of a new war machine be one of them? Sure, priests would bless chapels and other various chambers, I don't see why the Priesthood of Mars would need to ask permission of the Priesthood of Terra to do what they do, any more than the Departmento Munitorum would ask the Ecclesiarchy's permission to invade a rebelling world or the Administratum to colonize a new one.
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Fgdsgf : I did not mean the Ecclesiarchy's approval of ships specifically, but rather the fact that the Adeptus Mechanicus religiously controls virtually all technology and it's applications, with the approval of the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition. They don't need to ask permission. They already have all the permissions they could possibly need.

Screw around with the Adeptus Mechanicus and you're effectively screwing around with the Ministorum by proxy - and so by extension, the Inquisition. Illegally building ships from scratch is likely all kinds of heresy all over the charts.
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ItsUncertainWho : The Mechanicus controlls all technology by treaty with the Emperor. The Ecclesiarchy has nothing to do with it and has no power over the Mechanicus.
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Tyraxus : This. The Mechanicus is technically an allied empire, not part of the Imperium, although they've grown so intertwined over thousands of years that the joins are effectively seamless. Hell, it's questionable whether even an Inquisitor retains his suite of powers on a Forgeworld via right of his station or via recriprocity granted by the Treaty of Mars (and I'm sure there's some in-universe debate whether a Magos of a Forgeworld would be within his rights to tell an Inquisitor "Shove off, I'll take care of this, this is Mechanicus soil" or not; in games I run the Magos most certainly can but generally won't due to politics).
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Fgdsgf : Since multiple people seem to be failing their comprehension rolls: Approval. ( Tyraxus edit: Link broke during transit, it's a link to dictionary.com, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/approval?r=75&src=ref&ch=dic )

This. The Mechanicus is technically an allied empire, not part of the Imperium, although they've grown so intertwined over thousands of years that the joins are effectively seamless. Hell, it's questionable whether even an Inquisitor retains his suite of powers on a Forgeworld via right of his station or via recriprocity granted by the Treaty of Mars (and I'm sure there's some in-universe debate whether a Magos of a Forgeworld would be within his rights to tell an Inquisitor "Shove off, I'll take care of this, this is Mechanicus soil" or not; in games I run the Magos most certainly can but generally won't due to politics).

The Treaty of Mars predates the formation of the Inquisition by far. The Treaty of Mars was formed at the eve of the Imperium, while the Inquisition rose from the ashes of the Horus Heresy. I would say that the Treaty of Mars would not afford the AdMech any exemption from the Inquisition, nor would it stipulate that the Inquisition -do- have authority; I think the Inqusition by large depends on their carte blanche over Imperium subjects.

So I would say the absolute opposite - The Inquisition could most absolutely crack down on the Adeptus Mechanicus or a forge world of their choice, but likely wouldn't, out of fear of the AdMech or Magos in question throwing a bitchfit over the whole thing. Just like between the Space Marines and the Inquisition, I think there's a lot of "Why don't you just piss off?" between the Inquisition and the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Edit: I want to take this opportunity to again voice my hatred for the forum software. The quotes are broken and there's no way for me to fix it.

Yes, the Treaty of Mars happened way before the Inquisition, and it recognized Mars and Mars's colonies as a separate empire allied with the Emperour's dominions. So Imperial thought police (the =I=) may or may not have jurisdiction. Like I said, it's a point of legal debate in my universe when I'm running the game. I liken it to the pre-'78 KGB in East Germany: they may not have any formal power, but it would result in a serious international incident if the Stasi ever decided to push it. I actually see Arbites and even Inquisitors on Forgeworlds as Stasi agents: there to monitor Imperial citizens (scribes of the Adeptus Terra, Ecclesiarchs, etc), without any official power over citizens of the Mechanicum, but with such a close working relationship that if they see anything they can go ahead and take action and get it validated/ratified through diplomatic channels later.

And yes, I know what approval means: formal permission, implying that without said permission the action needing approval would either be against the law/policy/rules or simply not happen. I argue that the Priesthood Mars runs an entirely separate religion from that of the Ecclesiarchy, and neither need nor desire permission to do anything technology related since that's their portfolio by treaty with the Emperour himself.

Tyraxus said:

Should be see them as Stasi agents in Moscow. Stupid lack of an edit function.

Before I venture forth about the Mechanicus:

Stupid lack of an edit function.

To edit a post do the following - click the Report to the Moderator link in the lower right corner of the post, then go to the address bar and find the word reportar and replace it with editar , press enter. Should work for you just as it works for me.

Back to the Mechanicus discussion.

According to the description in the Inquisitor's Handbook for DH the Skitarii serve as the law enforcement on a forge world, so I would assume that the arbites aren't there. Which would fit the idea of a parallel empire. Speaking of Forge Worlds, I would say that all clues point towards a complete autonomy from Imperial influence. There are no ecclesiarchs, administratum servants etc. on a Forge World, everyone is part of the Mechanicum and not of the Imperium. The word of the Tech-priests is law and the faith into the Omnissiah the only faith accepted. In short a Forge World is the property of the Mechanicus and the Imperium can forget about controlling it in any way.

I would say that the Adeptus Mechanicus are a separate entity than the Imperium and as such govern themselves. After all they have their own fleets, armies, planets, faith and their highest magos sits as a permanent member of the High Lords of Terra. Together with the Adeptus Astartes and Navis Nobilite they have their own sandboxes to play in instead of sharing the bigger sandbox with the other Adeptus Terra.

First, it seems I missed this and it makes me look bad, so I'll respond to it here:

Tyraxus said:

Well, yes, you're entirely right and I was wrong. Sorta. What I meant is that, even if there are "new" ships, they're cobbled together from older parts that they may or may not have full understanding of, or may not even be able to reproduce. This somewhat ties into the old question as just exactly an STC is and how it actually works with an STC Template. On one hand, I can see these things being entirely automated, churning out things that the Imperium and the AdMech simply don't understand. If so, I was entirely wrong, I apologize, and there are indeed entirely new ships produced in the Imperium as we speak.

On the other hand, access to an STC of this nature entirely excludes the remote possibility of constructing any kind of ship yourself - it is entirely an automated, mass-produced process under the control of the AdMech.

I do not think that the Imperium or the AdMech has the capabilities or the knowledge to construct the individual pieces of a starship, which you then assemble, in the same way we today construct a jet engine, a cabin, fuel tanks, control boards, wiring, landing struts and wheels for an airplane and then assemble it; which is essentially the process I imagined in my head when we were discussing the PC's constructing a new kind of ship hull.

They do, however, have the capability to rip pieces of technology from other, older ships, derelicts, space hulks, scrapyards and so on, and construct something out of it, even if they do not understand how ever individual part works.

Tyraxus said:

I don't think that the Arbites are in any way excluded from being on Forge Worlds, so please inform me if there's a source saying that they are. As far as I'm concerned, they are there to uphold Imperial Law and have a Courthouse on -every- Imperial Planet - including the Forge Worlds of the AdMech. But as for the interaction between the Inquisition and the AdMech - I entirely agree. Again, I think there are quite some pissing contests between Magoses and Inquisitors and a lot of courtesy, as well as a lot of backroom deals when the former fails.

All in all, I think the AdMech does it's best to handle things internally or by the means of the regular Arbites, or perhaps whilst trying to avoid Arbites involvment altogether (I remember something somewhere saying that Arbitrators are never taken from the world they are serving on, which means that they likely would have no loyalties to the AdMech - correct me if I'm wrong, because I cannot remember a source for that).

In legal terms, I think that the Inquisition's Carte Blanche applies, but that the AdMech can, and likely have, challenged it under the terms of the Treaty of Mars, with the Adeptus Mechanicus formally being a protectorate with extensive rights and obligations. Again, refer to the countless situations between the Inquisition and the Adeptus Astartes as examples, for they have a similar relationship.

Tyraxus said:

I don't think that the Arbites are in any way excluded from being on Forge Worlds, so please inform me if there's a source saying that they are.

Right now the only clue is page 10 in the Inquisitor's Handbook saying that the Skitarii are the law enforcement on a Forge World. I assume that the Book of Judgment will have all the information that will either confirm or deny this.

An additional problem would be that the arbites, as foreign personnel, would be effectively barred from most places on a Forge World due to the simple fact of not being part of the Ad-Mech. In several novels members of the Ad-Mech refuse to answer questions about technology or grant access to their temples based on the fact that the other person is a non-believer. I remember a passage from one of the Calpurnia books in which the Ad-Mech of Hydraphur went on complete lockdown and the Arbites weren't able to do anything against it. In another novel a magos explains to Calpurnia that they are honoring her by allowing her to go beyond the anteroom where all others must wait while being observed by gun servitors and skitarii.

Arag said:

I'm going to double-post, because if I don't, the board will break my quoting.

Arag said:

I love you. Now, there is an edit function, though - but it disappears after a little while, as the post grow older. This is to allow editing early on, but disallow "cheating" by editing posts much later. In some cases it can also be abused by people that have been banned from posting. Still. Neat.

Arag said:

Arag said:

Being a permanent member of the High Lords of Terra is not a sign of autonomy. After all, the Ecclesiarch has a seat. The head of the Administratum has a seat. So does the heads of the Adeptus Arbites, the Officio Assassinorum, the Astronomican and the Adeptus Astra Telepathica - and you wouldn't suggest that any of those organizations have any kind of concrete autonomy.

You say they have their own faith, but they clearly don't - they have to at least pay lip service to the Emperor as an avatar of the Omnissiah. It would be more appropriate to say that they have their own church, but just that single fact shows that in no way is their autonomy complete, or they would owe fealty to no-one. Nor is the fact that they have their own armies and planets a sign of autonomy, for so does several other organizations in the Imperium, of varying success and numbers; it's just a sign of power, and no-one is denying that the AdMech is extremely powerful and indeed a necessary part of the Imperium, far more so than most other organizations.

Also, as a side note, the Navis Nobilite quite clearly has to yield to Inquisitorial authority. It is about the only clear authority the Imperium has over them. Even as almost entirely autonomous houses, they can face the destruction of their entire house at the hands of Ordo Malleus, given the slightest reason, which is half the reason they try to handle everything internally.

Arag said:

Well, hopefully, Book of Judgement will, because all I can see on pg.10 relates to the Skitarii Tech-Guard as Guardsmen of a Forge World, being part of the PDF and Law Enforcement:

"The regular armed forces of the Cult Mechanicus are the Skitarii Tech-Guard, raised as other worlds might form PDF units or regiments of the Imperial Guard. Selected and relentlessly trained to defend and enforce order on the forge worlds. Most will be part of a forge world’s standing defences or law enforcement, while others may serve in the retinues of individual Magos or allied guild houses."

Let's not forget that the Adeptus Arbites are NOT the regular law enforcement of a planet in any way. There are regular law enforcement on virtually any world, independent from that of the Adeptus Arbites. But thanks for pointing it out, because I swear, I read that page up and down three times without actually catching that paragraph.

Arag said:

Oh well, I'll have to trust you on this, because my novel-fu is weak. That said, just because the Adeptus Arbites would be in a terrible situation to do their job doesn't preclude the presence of the Adeptus Arbites on said world, or their formal authority. It just means that they'll be doing a terrible job while being there.

Which is more the baseline than anything else when it comes to the Imperium.

I can already see the scenario of an Arbitrator going from door to door in a film noir, with people either refusing to see him or closing the door in his face, barring him from areas of interest to his investigation, as he tries to unravel a conspiracy of tech.

Fgdsgf: Come on. I even linked you to the Dictionary. How can you fail reading rolls with a dictionary in hand and hours of time? That's at least a +80 adjustment right there.
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Approval, noun. 1) The act of approving; approbation. 2) formal permission or sanction 3) (something involving stamp collecting, apparently)
Approve, verb. 1) To speak or think favorably of; pronounce or consider agreeable or good; judge favorably. 2) To consent or agree to. 3) To confirm or sanction formally; ratify. 4) (various obsolete meanings)

I think you're meaning approval to mean "thinking favourably of," while I'm meaning "to formally grant permission or sanction." Part of it is that I work with the government, where approval means someone formally agreeing with a document or decision (or at least saying the documented chain of reasoning is sound).

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On new ships and parts: I think you're right in several cases but not across the board. Entirely new classes of ships are created and sanctioned: see battlecruisers as a type and the Ambition class cruiser in BFK (which are described as "shining new vessels"). I fully agree that ships so badly damaged that they can't have their hulls repaired and are sent to the breakers have parts reused in new builds, but think on this: with all the ships that have exploded in action, lost in the warp, away on extended patrols, and taking into account how parts wear out over normal use, is it really reasonable to assume that the net number of ships in the Imperial Fleet (or hell, in Imperial space) is decreasing? Is it reasonable with all the in-universe descriptions we have of massive fleets being raised for crusades, let along to fight Tyranid incursions or Ork Waaaghs, to think that these fleets are only being raised because ships are being broken and salvaged at the same rate/time? Is it reasonable to think that the Mechanicus doesn't know how to make macrocannons, when we have examples of entire Forgeworlds being given over to their manufacture? "The Imperium can't make new parts" might make for a good bit of grimdark, but it fails to live up to even the tiny bit of internal consistency the 40k universe has.

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Faith in the Omnissiah is pretty much the only faith on Forgeworlds, and the DH and RT books bear this out. Why else would Forgeworlders have "Stranger to the Cult"? For the common masses, it's close enough to get by, but there are striking enough differences between the creeds to result in mechanical penalties for Forgeworlders.

We had this discussion already a while ago.

The Admech does have their own faith. While some of them venerate the Emperor as an avatar of the Omnissiah not all of them do, in fact i'd wager to say most of them do not. During the Horus Heresy that divergent faith is actually why so many of them went over to the dark side.

From Blood of Martyrs, p21:
"The Cult Mechanicus is another deviant faith with which the Ecclesiarchy is often at odds. The Tech-Priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus worship their own deity, who they call the Machine-God. As with the Imperial Creed, many sects exist within the Cult Mechanicus, and it is commonly held that the Machine-God is in fact a manifestation of the Emperor, although many in the Ecclesiarchy have great difficulty accepting this. ... Despite such differences, the Ecclesiarchy has no choice but to tolerate the Cult Mechanicus, for without the Tech-Priests the Imperium would literally grind to a halt."

In fact, there is even an ecclesiarchic background on page 57, the omnissian apostate, which is specifically focused to infiltrate the Cult Mechanicus and try to win over converts. In the description we read the following:
"It is said that no man may truly serve two masters, and indeed Tech-Priests who deviate, even for a moment, from any outward displays of devotion to their great calling take their lives in their hands, for t he Calixian Technomagi would be well within their rights to execute or servitorise any within their realms who cast aside the Omnissian oath."

Think about that for a second: they are in their rights to kill or servitorise those who worship the Emperor and not the Omnissiah. That's frigging impossible to entertain on any non-Admech world in the Imperium, isn't it?

The Admech has an alliance as the empire of mars with the empire of Terra. The one headed imperial eagle was modified to be two-headed to represent the alliance of the two empires. Mars gained total dominion over it's own worlds and over any STC fragments discovered (note that this is not the same as dominion over technology as such), in return for which they agreed to keep the Emperor's armies supplied. In other words: they do not pay a tithe as in x % of their produce. They need to supply enough to keep the armies stocked, however much % of their produce that is (and in most cases it seems to be well above 50%, if you go by descriptions in various novels such as Dark Mechanicum and the FFG books).

The situation at current is unclear as it's not detailed. It seems likely - to me - that their measure of independence depends on who is the fabricator general and who the other High Lords of Terra are. Just as the Ecclesiarchy waxed and waned over the millenia, so does the Admech if you ask me. So basically: give them the level of independence that you want them to have. There are examples in the FFG books about Inquisitors going there to kick some Chaos arse, but they are few and far between and most all of them mention that they weren't granted access until it was either to late or nearly so.

Personally: i favour them being rather strong, because if they are not then honestly there is little stopping non-admech from inventing lots of things and producing them en masse. The fact that the Admech have a stranglehold on the production of tech is tribute to their strength and how they manage to play imperial institutions of one another on the one hand, and create mythology about machine spirits and foul xenos machine spirits on the other hand. I seriously doubt anyone high up in the Admech would honestly believe in "machine spirits", given the level of knowledge they are privvy to due to their rank. As such i take them to use this ploy in order to maintain their stranglehold on technology, in essence solidifying their own powerbase through the ignorance of others.