im probably being thick here but please bare with me. if 3 or 4 players are committed to a tournament does that mean that its a free for all. all playing using the same ball and tackling any player from any of the other 3 teams? also does 2nd and 3rd place get the same winnings in a 4 player game as there is only 3 payouts on the card.

thank you

Unlike a match-up, all teams may be involved in a tournament. And yes, teams fight over the same ball. They may tackle any other player at the tournament.

Tournament payouts are on p. 13. Ties are also covered on that page. If you have 4 teams playing in a tournament, the third team gets the "Lose" payout and the fourth place team gets nothing.

Tournament Payouts

And in a 2 player game, 2nd place gets Lose.. not Runner Up.

Jenkins said:

Yeah, whoops, I read that too quickly. Thanks for fixing.

We had the following situation in the blood bowl tournament last night.

Dwarf - 10 Star power

Orcs - 10 Star Power

Skaven - 8 Star Power (with the ball)

Elves - 6 Star Power.

Who wins and how is it sorted out for runner up etc?

Per the rules it looks like the Skaven would be the winner as there was a tie and they had the ball but they weren't part of the tie for 1st place.

any help or clarification much appreciated.

Andy J

Not quite. You first look at the tie between the two highest SP teams: dwarves and orcs. If either of them has the ball, they win. If not, the manager with the 'First Manager' token determines the winner. The other team gets runner up. Skaven and Elves get the "Lose" payout.

I think that is how we played it.

However the manual specifically says the 1st player chooses when the ball is in the centre field. In our case it wasn't it was in the Skavens hands.

So I wonder if the intent of the designer was for the ball carrier to be king?

The rules are not quite clear in that point in my opinion.

The first part of text in the rulebook deals with a highlight. As there are maximum of two players there, it makes perfect sense that the player with the ball wins in case of a tie, with both players losing if none of them has the ball.

Reading the rules literally, in a tournament with more than two players as in your example I would say ball is king if there is a tie, regardless of the star power of the team with the ball.

Question is, if that is what the designers intended or if they just didn´t think about it.

AVJax said:

This was talked about in a previous thread started by Koala404
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=202&efcid=43&efidt=569081

The problems seem to arise from the rules talking about highlights (only 2 players) to tournaments (up to 4 players) without a lot of clarity in what rules apply to both - and how they might apply differently from 2 players to 3 or 4... and also because winner/win and loser/lose have their "general" meanings but can also have specific meanings for payouts and various card effects.

I posted this on the FFG forums which I think clarifies the "logical" way to apply it (I can't say positively it's what the designers intended but I think it's a rules 'gap'.. that the designers assumed it was clear when applied to 3 or 4 players at a tourney. I don't think it was intended that - to use your example - the skaven would rocket from 3rd to 1st because of the tie while they posessed the ball)

Note: Full credit to Koala for his suggestion of using 'ranking' instead of wins/loses.
Note: this is to clarify what happens at tournaments... for highlights, the rules are perfectly clear.

1. The teams are ranked in order of their Star Power... highest to lowest..
2. If two (or more) teams are tied for Star Power, the team with the ball ranks higher (better) than any other tied teams.
3. The First Manager decides the ranking between any/all tied teams that don't have the ball.
4. The teams that Rank 1st and 2nd are considered "winners" and get the First Place and Runner Up prizes respectively. (exception:2 player game)
5. Teams that Rank 3rd or 4th (or 2nd in a two player game) are considered 'losers' and each get the Lose prize.

So, in your example the First Manager decides the ranking between the Orcs and Dwarves for Winner and Runner Up. The Skaven rank 3rd and the Elves 4th - both of them collect the Lose prize.

If your example was the same except that the Elves had 8SP also, the Skaven would Rank 3rd because the ball breaks the tie between them and the Elves. The first manager gets no say.

If All 4 teams had 10SP, and the Skaven had the ball... the Skaven would Rank 1st and the first manager would decide 2nd,3rd and 4th.

I remember reading that thread before I bought the game. I think that's how the designers intended it. Compare SP first, check possession of ball for tie-break, else First Manager picks. The designers use ball possession as tie-breaker only, and it is only a minor choice-of-word error that gives rise to potential confusion. But the intent seems clear enough. "In case of a tie at a tournament where neither team has the ball..." would have been better, since the text is clear we're comparing SP points.

Those five steps, of course, make things simpler to follow. I think what might have happened was that FF was trying to do all the tie-break rules together instead of breaking out tie-breaks for match-ups and tie-breaks for tournaments as separate rules entries.