I've never liked this action. It takes your entire turn and only moves you a little way away from your opponent. All this does is give them an opportunity to get a charge bonus on you next turn. The only time it is actually useful is in multiple combats or if you can step through a door way and somehow close the door behind you.

This tweak doesn't change much, but I think it helps make a Disengage more useful. If you successfully Disengage from your opponent they lose a 1/2 action in their next turn as your defensive attacks put them on the back foot.

This gives you a small chance of escaping rather than just putting you out the open waiting to get an axe in the back.

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

And this is quit alright, me thinks. After all, what would happen in a one-on-one fight if you simply try to turn around? You will get hit. What happens if you go backwards, fighting? You will be followed.

Tryring to "disengage" does only make sense if

- you opponent just wanted to fight you off so you go back to where you came
- your opponent is hurt so bad that he/she can´t / won´t follow you
- you suspect your opponent to go after something else.
- you have a companion that will step in for you
- there is a "sure escape" really near by (like diving into a gab to small for the big thing to follow you throw)

In any other situation, I assume that it is quiet correct that you simply gave you opponent a change to really get at ya...

Melee combat in the 40k universe is traditionally not a good place to be for ranged weapon specialists.

Disengage isn't the only way to get out of combat, it's just the safest way since your opponent doesn't get a free attack on you. Even if you take the Move or Run action you are still permitted a reaction: a parry or dodge. Also, a successful Maneuver can get force your enemy back out that door and allow you to close it behind him.

The best way to get out of combat is to get some support from your melee fighter allies. These can move in and make sure that once you pull away the enemy will have a harder time following you. It's always beneficial to outnumber the enemy anyways.

-K

Not forgetting that well timed disengage by all characters in melee helps avoid them getting blasted by a compatriot that is about to fire into combat.

But doesn't that simply support it being a pointless ability? If being completely useless is 'how it should be' then why does it exist? Obviously not to actually LET YOU disengage.

It depends how realistic you want your combat. You could have a classic hilt to hilt push of strength, thrusting your opponent on their backfoot allowing you to turn and run with a headstart.

Or how about Knock Down? It takes a half action, allowing another half action to run away. How exactly can your opponent get up from being knocked down and STILL get into combat with you in the same turn? Half action Stand, Half Action Move. He can't STRIKE you, but you are now in his danger zone, so unless you knock him down again or disengage, running away from him will cause a free attack on you, even though he couldn't even hit you when got within range.

Disengage is an overly useless action. Knock Down does exactly the same thing only injures them in the process, but allows them to get into range of you next turn. However, Knock Down prevents them actually attacking you, whilst Disengage, the Action that is supposed to allow you to escape your foe simply means on their turn they get to CHARGE you.

So for escaping combat, knock down is the best bet, not 'disengage', the action created for you to do that.

Hellebore

It's quite simple. Win initiative, delay, parry/dodge the attack, disengage and run like the wind. It's not pointless, just not useful by itself when applied without thought or if you're facing a faster opponent.

Saying that knock down does the same thing better is false. Knockdown requires an opposed strenght test, and if you loose by much YOU get knocked down. Disengage is automatic.

Graspar said:

Disengage is automatic except you must "Win initiative, delay, parry/dodge the attack, disengage and run like the wind. "

Knock down produces 0 chance of being charged next turn. If you win initiative after a knock down then you get to run away just as easily. Knock down only puts you down if you fail by two or more degrees.

Disengage is not useful by itself when applied IN MOST SITUATIONS because of the limitations it applies. Which means that running away from an opponent is almost never an option in the game.

Hellebore

That's not so strange is it? I'm just saying that disengage has it's uses, not that it's easy to get out and away from combat safely. Should it be?

Hellebore said:

No there's always the option to flee, take you free attack like a man and hoof it.

Of course there are plenty of times when you want to be able to break off combat without giving them the opportunity for a free hack. Such as they themselves being locked in combat which in my experience happens most of the time.

I see Disengae as very useful to get away when you have allies either in the melee combat or back a bit delaying to drop a few clips into the now un-engaged opponents.

It does have its uses, but is not ideal for every situation.

If you want a combat heavy game, sure.

It doesn't necessarily apply to Dark Heresy, but in WFRP running away is often touted as an option when the bad guys are encountered. However, neither system actually makes running away a useful or workable option, because you are very likely to get smashed in the head.

If you want an investigation heavy game you don't want your players penalised for NOT wanting to stand around smashing each other in the head with clubs. However, the combat system is offensive-centric, penalising those who wish to run rather than confront things. It is a fact that pushing someone on their backfoot in melee gives you a big enough opening to run away from them, not take a few metre shuffle just to let them charge you in the face. Or knocking someone down should give you an even bigger headstart than it does. Some athletic people can jump up from their backs pretty quick, but that is a special ability not a standard one.

If you disengage from someone properly you should have ample time to actually get out of the way, leaving only ranged weapons or a particularly fast opponent to actually get you. The rules do not allow that and instead effectively force you to fight to the death.

Hellebore

An option I've recently instituted for a number of tactical purposes is an "aggressive disengage". It requires a successful WS check, and can be dodged or parried, but if successful you are fully disengaged as a half action (you basically check your opponent and knock them away/off balance), and can then move, shoot with a +30, have your friend shoot without a melee penalty, etc.

That aggressive disengage gives some nice possibilities when wielding an vanaheim auto shotgun with bayonet and red dot sight, Delay, agrresive disengage or manuvere full auto shotgun at point blank range giving at +60 bs and a 6 rounds spray with scatter, and if loaded with inferno shells most things will be destroyed by the Emperors wrath made manifest.

back to disengage in one on one combat disengage doesnt seem to be the thing, but since this works against opponents ( more than one) it might make a smater choice oppsed to a delay/ manuvere one meter away and then your full action run, is proberly the better in a ono on one fight unless your opponent is significant faster than you, he will be atleast 1 meter behind you.

Aren't Inferno shells the ones that are single shot only?

Your thinking of the blazer shells in IH p. 164, the inferno shells in the core book p.143does not state anything abour firing mode since they can be used in bolters to, and there 4.5 times as expensive as blazer shells.

I knew the name was indicative of fire, wasn't sure if it was the same ones or not though.

Hellebore said:

It isn´t completely useless. Good uses have been mentioned in the previous posts. Especially the one about "getting away from your enemy while your range fighting comrad is going to place this shot with the area effect.

Perhaps I should rephrase what I said? Disengage is useless as a STANDALONE action, unlike (afaik) every other action available it is not effective unless there are others taking actions besides you.

It isn't a disengage from combat if your opponent takes a three metre step and is in combat with you again. That's a backward shuffle. The name itself is misleading, because you literally CANNOT disengage from someone using that action, unless they are unconscious, tied up, or dead, in which case disengage is irrelevant.

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

Yep.

Hellebore said:

...or one among the other circumstances mentioned earlier.

It isn´t useless "at all". It is "not useful in all situations at any time".

The only stand alone purpose i have been able to think of is something like
you walk into a room and 3 deamons( or other bad baddies) appear right next to you
you win the initivive
and disengage back to the doorway where you can try take them in 1vs 1 fighting eith support from your fellow acolytes.

so the only use is get away from alot of baddies to a nearby safety zone or safer zone.

Sarius said:

So, you don´t consider FaceEaters mentioned use to be valid?

Gregorius21778 said:

Well its much safer a few meters away when theres alot of freindly fire in form of frag granade and flamers aimed at the monster mob your standing in, so yes i see faceaters post as valid.

Here's a Disengage fix you might like. Instead of only moving your Half speed, allow a character to move their Run speed. Still a full-round action, but it allows them to disengage the combat without the necessity of having the ideal initative setup relative to your group and the baddies. I do agree with Hellebore; since every (or most) other actions are good enough "stand alone", the action designed to save your bacon should be, too.

Gregorius21778 said:

There is a difference between Literal uselessness and practical uselessness. Square wheels are practically useless, they still work, but not very well. Rod shaped wheels on the other hand are literally useless as wheels.

Disengage may not be literally useless, but it is practically useless. The number of times it COULD be used to save you but can't means you are far more likely to be killed trying to use it than saved. And you only get to die once (excepting fate points of cours).

Hellebore

If the biggest problem we're having with 'Disengage' is the fact you can be charged on the following round then that should not be, in most cases, a problem. It would be up to the player to manuver himself in a position to avoid a charge. The rule for charge states that you move your charge "speed" and the foe must be at least 4m away. So be it 4m minimum, or at the end of your charge move those 4 metres must be in a straight line. So put something between you and the foe you disengaged and poof problem solved. Of course if your fighting in an absolutly empty flight hanger then your not in a good position to disengage. The system is brutal and characters will most likely die. Its up to the GM and players to come up with cunning ways to use these actions.

"I disengage and move 2m around the corner of the corridor". There you go now is that enemy going to follow you, or take his time to ready a ranged weapon, prime a grenade what, because he can't charge you?

Minis and a square spaced map will help out.