Does anyone find putting this model on overwatch of any value. He gets 2 dice plus one for not moving ie 3 dice. This never seems to be enough to do anything. The sad thing is, the only way to get rid of keep firing is with a bonus item.

You're referring to the combat pack from what I'm guessing:

Which includes

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Mad Minute- if you haven't moved this game turn, add one additional die to each of your attacks.

MP-40: a 5 dice (automatic) ranged weapon

Keep Firing: While on overwatch your weapon's base dice pool is 2 (before any bonus dice) but your overwatch attacks do not remove your overwatch status.

Steihlhandgrenade: a regular grenade

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Is this ever worth it? Well you're right this only gives him 3 dice per attack on overwatch, which isn't all that scary. However if this is coupled with Heizinger's +1 die combat hermetica, it becomes 4 dice per attack on overwatch- that is pretty decent.

The scenarios in which you use this are based on your own strategy, and your opponents. Its effectiveness depends on how good you can bottleneck your enemies- or you could look at it as a tool to use for bottlenecking your enemies:

No one is going to willingly send a troop into a path to be shot at, and then take an action (while being shot at) to try and take out a trooper- not worth it. Thus you've spent one command point and blocked a path for a turn. Pretty effective.

Since I tend to enjoy using Heizinger, Hoss, Yula, Schocktruppen and Stosstruppen- this actually works out pretty well. I leave Yula (with Close Combat Bar) protecting a hallway from a doorway, and Schocktruppen guarding another hall. This leaves Hoss and Heizinger pretty safe to wreak havoc without entering the line of fire. Stosstruppen I send to check crates with his command pack for the extra slot.

Anyway, it's an ability for people who play "control" forcing their opponents to do what they want, since it's the best option they've got. It's not an ability that suits everyone's playstyle, but it definitely has its uses. The hard decision for me is choosing that or a first aid kit, (combat pack or stamina pack)

The combat pack is the one I never pic for schocktruppen, I used to pick stamina for the medi kit and the free shot until the command pack for these guys became available. I now go with 2 shocktruppen with combat pack everytime.

They fire on overwatch just once but with at least with 6 dice, sometimes even with 7 if there is another reich character in the path (whitch is often), and they get to be on overwatch for free!

Also 6 dice in h-t-h is a nice bonus!

Moebius said:

The "Camp 111" +1 is to their combat value. Unless I'm mistaken, the only way I know to get an extra die is from Heizinger's Combat Hermetica and/or Mad Minute.

Each pack has it's use- I tend to favor the first aid kit, but I've used all three to great effect =)

diversion Architect is right about Cammp 111, and his tactical suggestions on shocktruppen with combat pack are great. I have to admit that I used to think the Shocktruppen combat pack was worthless too, especially when compared to the command pack. But some days ago I used the combat pack with good effect against a Matriarchy team including (of course) Voivodes. A Shocktruppen with combat pack on overwatch supported by Heizinger with his combat pack ( +1 die) was able to gun down several Voivodes during the game. Reason is, you need only one wound to kill a Voivode and they have to get adjacent to you to attack, giving you several opportunities to iniciate overwatch attacks. Furthermore, the Shocktruppen was able to attack both Voivodes that were activated during the activation. That lone Shocktruppen really hindered the Matriarchy's approach by reducing the value of the Voivodes.

diversionArchitect said:

Ouch, you are right, still good enough for me though...

I like first aid kit as well, speccially when they are coming as reinforcements, by that time the healing is very welcome.

Hi guys sorry to rain on the parade but I have two points to make regarding the Shocktruppen in the 'trooper pack'

The Mechanised arm in the command pack - I'm sorry but I believe that this only gives 4 dice total ----- reason - Demon taint in the Stosstruppen pack stipulates --- add one additional die to your attack roll for each h-t-h attack, including this one ---- since the words "including this one" are omitted from the mechanised arm it must be a basic 2 dice plus 2 dice roll ........ Ruling otherwise would mean I would almost never take a Stosstruppen

When you put a Shocktruppen on free overwatch I do not see why you have to be bound to it? Take a normal overwatch attack if you wish and turn the 'keep firing' counter over for the turn (this is me going out on a limb btw and NOT supported by the rules)

-Nhoj

i disagree nhoj -

All hand-to-hand weapons have a dice pool of 4 when attacking by default. It's Unarmed attacks that have a dice pool of 2.

Mechanized Arm is a Hand-to-Hand weapon, so its base dice pool is 4. Its text adds +2 dice to H2H attacks, making it 6.

Demon Taint is a Hand-to-Hand weapon. Its base dice pool is 4. Its text adds +1 die per H2H weapon in your inventory to your attacks. Demon Taint is included in that set of Hand-to-Hand weapons in your inventory when calculating the modification.

Not to say i've never misread rules though ... i first played Shocktruppen in Revised rules as such: Keep Firing made OW attacks roll 2 LESS dice when attacking, not base of 2. So this is essentially 1 more die while attacking in OW in all cases. THEN it isn't so meak and then REALLY sucked when I realized the error...the 1 die makes a difference But base of 3 instead of 2 might be too much if OW isn't lost to change in House Rule ... will have to do calculations of iterations to see ...

My interpretation of the rule is the same as artemus. It is true that stosstruppen seem weak with this in mind, I would only use them in 2cp games with stamina, having a reinforcement in these cases when noone else can is a nice boon.

Maybe the errata is they have the "h-t-h" weapon chracteristic and not just hardware, in the equipment card (if i recall correctly) its marked as +2 dice instead of 6 which is confusing, I think that again this should be included in the FAQ.

Anybody has a clue how long until we get a new FAQ?

Don't forget that the Shocktroppen in combat pack can also be used to lock-down characters. For exampel, Tala walks on to path A and is standing in the middel of it, a Schocktroppen also goes to path A. When the new turn begins, the Shocktroppen goes on Overwatch and he is standing in the way for Tala. Now Tala could either try to kill the Shocktroppen but then he gets one free attack against her first, and she might get hurt so her attack gets weaker. She can also try to run away, but since she is in the middle of the path the Shock will be able to attack her several times before she is out of harms reach. So the safest bet might be to just stand still and the Shocktroppen would have effectivly negated one whole characters activation.

MeisterH said:

Rigth, but the point is that mere 2 dice seldomly do any damage, and chars with a good stamina score are able to walk quite freely through a path overwatched by a Schocktruppen using the mentioned ability, spraying bullets happily to god knows where, but doing no damage at all.

Shocktruppen with Combat pack on overwatch will always roll 3 dice, 2 coming from Keep firing! and 1 from Mad minute. Aditionally, you should always play Heizinger with his Combat pack and keep him near to roll 4 dice. So you can have several overwatch attacks with 4 dice each. This can actually be useful, as you will do at least two attacks on an enemy character: One when he enters the path, another one when he attacks.

Good idea, ??! ! That makes sense.

If I had a character blocked that way I would leave it of the late part of the turn, then just shoot at the shocktruppen, get a 3-4 dice attack in exchange and thats it.

I usually use hermann with the mental pack, specially against union. 1 extra dice is powerful, but blocking the union from entering several paths when playing domination, CTF or objective is usually better (as bonus I put him either the eye of horus or the helm of diomedes...

Moebius said:

That's how we usally play in our group and it's a real pain in the bottum for the union player. Though it's pretty fun to trap Hermann in a fire grenade when he's that lame. 4 Stamina ain't that good against 3 automatic successes.

There are many options but it really depends on the dice. I find the Union to be a bit overwhelming sometimes with Barry and MacNeal. It is not uncommon for them to put 7 hits on a target in one turn. Thus Herzinger's Occulta is a real advantage sometimes. Although I have missed on all 4 dice with him, while my opponent needing 7+, hit with 3!

If Asteros gets up close, it is definitely going to be a problem. Keeping him at range for as long as possible seems almost mandatory. In scenario games he can be a weakness as you have only 4 models. The Matriarchy can be running 7! Voivodes are capable of being repaired as well, which can also be frustrating for the opponent. Hoax can cause automatic wounds etc., so there are ways around it, although none are certain!

MeisterH said:

Hermann in a fire grenade when he's that lame. 4 Stamina ain't that good against 3 automatic successes.

If Hermann gets into that sort of trouble I just dont move him, if he stays put there is no damage (there is not damage either when the grenade is thrown, only when entering circles on fire). So for three turns Hermann stays put hoping for his hermetica to last and trying to patmos everyone that comes close...

The problem with the fire grenade that I cant get around is that grenade first turn on castle ksiaz that cant be avoided... Basically when that happened the first time I say, well you won, want to play a second game in a different map same teams? Didnt appen again but the game itself should not allow that to begin with... I think theres already a thread about that around here...

It seems you've managed to publish the "publish" button! I noticed while quoting you...

Moebius said:

That is true and probably the best way to handel the situation but if the grenade is thrown at the right moment you could possibly make Hermann stand still for 3 turns. Which will give you some time to do your things and if your lucky, you might trap someone else with him, like Eva or Yula. Who also have low stamina values.

The easy solution to that problem is use the "Rush and Go" variant that is available with the expansion. The 2 additional entrances avoid this issue entirely or seem to anyway.

The introduction of the flame grenade was after the first maps were released, so you really do need the 4 entrance option if you use them I think.